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Surprise with 400 Legend and factory ammo.

I posted this on a crossbow board, under non-crossbow topics. I recently got a Savage Trailmaster 110 in 400 Legend and topped it with a 2x10 Conquest scope. No brass available, yet; but many excellent 40 cal smokeless Muzzleloading bullets are available for reloading. This tremendous selection seems largely unknown since on reloading forums, I read about the nonavailability of bullets other than pistol bullets.
Below is the post I made. All shooting was done off a card table with quality rests and shot in a farm field with a 45 degree 5-7 mph quartering tailwind . No windage corrections were made.

Parts of Arkansas where centerfire was previously not allowed, SW cartridges are allowed this year. After looking thru all the available cartridges, I selected 400 Legend in a Savage 110 Trailmaster. Almost no ammo is available, period and virtually none in stock.

I bought 2 boxes of Winchester 215g (2,250 with a dismal 0.205 BC). No good brass available so these will be my fireformed cases to measure and use for Quickload calculations. I’ve ordered Redding reloading dies and have 100s of 200 SSTs and a hundred 225 Accumaxes (BCs of .265 and .315 respectively). Should be able to get loads of 2,400 and 2,325 respectively, which will greatly greatly help trajectory, and supposedly accuracy.

I cleaned, then lapped the barrel ((360,500,800,1200, JB, cleaner). Great improvement in feel and appearance. Mounted a 2-10 Zeiss Conquest, bore sighted and went to the field. Using the trajectory points (hold unders and overs) for 50,100,150 (zero) and 200(5.5” low from 150 zero). I preceded to shoot 2 shot groups( 50,100,150 and finally 200. ALL 2 SHOT GROUPS WERE TOUCHING! The wind was 5-7 quartering from the right to left. I did not correct for this, thus you can see how each of the groups hit farther to the left the greater the range. The 3 red dot hit covers in the red bullseye show this left progression. Finally at 200 yards, the hits moved out of the red bullseye.

This 400 Legend with factory ammo is <1/2 MOA thru 200 yards! Who would have dreamed a factory rifle with factory ammo, SW cartridge could do this! Not me. I think I’ll keep it.


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Just 2 more points.
1) For 2 years I worked on the loads for Savage in the 10ML/ML2 and found that the SS, not blued, barrels were greatly helped by firelapping. I conventionally lapped this barrel before ever shooting. I could tell that it really helped the smoothness of the barrel. Fouling and accuracy were likely greatly improved.
2) I had planned on re-crowning - it just doesn’t even look crowned. I won’t touch it now. Maybe Savage knows a thing or two more than I ! I certainly hope so.
 
Savage rifles are the gun equivalent of a 300 I6 ford engine. Certainly Not fancy or flashy, but they will not let you down as a tool to go hunting with. All my savage factory barrels have shot very well, interesting to see the 400 legend! Here in MN the dnr has been pushing the legislature to drop the slug zone and have no limits on cartridges and it has been shot down because a few reps have safety concerns, I wish they would compromise and go with straight wall cartridges like other states have.
 
One of the cousin's kid's running buddies had one out at my range a few weeks back. He seemed to be impressed with it. We'll see how it does on game in a few weeks here.
 
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One of the cousin's kid's running buddies had one out at my range a few weeks back. He seemed to be impressed with it. We'll see how it does on game in a few weeks here.
The 215g soft point Winchester bullet out to 300 yards should be highly lethal. It should expend a lot of its energy quickly. DRT wouldn’t surprise me with a significant # of the hits.

The faster & higher BC’d 190g spire tipped bullets should have some range and trajectory advantages. I should have some for comparison by Mon or Tues of next week.
 
The same kid said he was considering a .41 Great Lakes but went with the 400L as factory rifles and ammo were available (he's not a handloader). I'll be watching the performance of this one as I just finally jumped on the 350L bandwagon this year (ran a .44 mag carbine for years).
 
Reloading components for the 400 Legend.
After experiencing the factory ammunition‘s accuracy, I have less interest in reloading the 400 Legend. However, I’d like to shoot only monolithic bullets. Potential candidates are the195 Barnes (poor BC of .172), , 165 CEB (need annealed, low BC), 240 CEB (need annealed, a little long, fair BC) and the 250 and 252 Pittman Hammers.
The limiting factor is the cartridge over length which is extremely limiting on higher BC bullets. The Savage can accommodate a much longer cartridge if shot single shot only. The design of both the magazine and the rifle will not accommodate any longer cartridge for magazine usage.
This could be a much flatter shooting, longer range cartridge if it hadn’t been designed to go into AR type rifles. I guess, black guns rule. Wish they didn’t. If I were younger, I’d consider a custom made 400 Legend that could handle 0.3” longer cartridges. Then high BC bullets (228g AccuMaxes, 252/3g Hammers) could be loaded to their minimum shank depths of 0.20”. Unfortunately, loading these bullets causes the shank too deep into the case thus greatly reducing the loaded case capacity.
A serious consideration is the not yet available CVA Scout in 400 Legend. I plan to buy one, when available, and just see what it can do. Their barrels are virtually custom grade and the break open action shortens the overall length.
Just some thoughts.
 
What made you choose the 350 over a 44?
I told my hunting group when Tikka brings one out, I'll get one. :) No complaints with the .44, I've had 18 1-shot kills with my 77/44 (and probably 30+.44 kills with revolvers & my 14" Contender since the mid-90s). I had also ran a .357 Max MGM Encore for a few seasons & it had a little more range than my 77/44. Finally witnessed enough good clean kills with the "Legends" that I was convinced to try one.
 
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Slight update. I just got some 190g with plastic tipped , more aerodynamically shaped Winchester 400L ammo. Their published MV is 2,400’/sec and slightly increased BC helps trajectories only slightly. The differences in the lead(215g and the spire pointed (190g) in trajectory and energy retained are virtually a wash. Due to high winds, I have not been able to compare actual in the field differences. The 215g, lead tipped, and the 190g spire tipped factory ammo may well be so good that hand loading would bring little advantage.

People hand load for 1 or 2 or both reasons: lower the cost of shooting or, more accurate or efficient loads. I got dies even before the rifle because I was certain I could get more accurate, faster loads. Not so sure, now. Hard to beat <1/2 MOA thru 200 yds. The 400 Legend, as accurate as the Savage appears to be, likely won’t be used as a plinking or target rifle.

Quick Load (limited by the available powders in the program) has trouble even reaching factory velocities even when using fired case volume. Incidentally, the 190g Winchester bullet is virtually identical to the Hornady 200SST.

Updates later.
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The tip on the pointed bullet is actually black plastic. It looks the same as the lead tip on the right but, it isn’t.
 
The same kid said he was considering a .41 Great Lakes but went with the 400L as factory rifles and ammo were available (he's not a handloader). I'll be watching the performance of this one as I just finally jumped on the 350L bandwagon this year (ran a .44 mag carbine for years).
I'm waiting on that 41GL reamer from the owner of the print. Pretty impressive round. The light bullets offer flatter trajectory and less recoil. I'm sure the 400L will soon have a lighter bullet offering eventually. Will certainly reduce recoil and offer a little better range for those looking for it. Most that use those straight wall cartridges are good with the 300 yard effectiveness.
 
I’m afraid that lighter weight, 40 cal bullets will not result in higher BC’d bullets. Sectional density is the factor.
Just look at the 2 Winchester factory bullets. 25g less weight (215-190) even with a spire point actually resulted in a lower BC (.198 vs .206). The increase of 150’/sec for the lighter bullet was virtually totally offset by lower BC to where the actual trajectory and KE remaining were almost identical to the 25g heavier but less aerodynamic bullet.

With these comparatively heavier than normal CF bullets plus the larger than standard CF caliber bullets, momentum starts playing an increasing factor in lethality compared to KE.

The answer, imo, is much higher BC’d bullets such as the 225/228g Pittman AccuMax bullets (BC .315) and being shot, hopefully, @ 2200’/sec. Note, the Winchester velocities for their 190 & 215g bullets are very high when considering case capacity, bullet weights and maximum pressure. I suspect either commercially unavailable or duplexed powders must be used by Winchester.

Going to be hard to equal or beat the Factory loads.
 
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Is BC really that important in a short range cartridge, vs. raw accuracy and dependable expansion and penetration? I don't have any experience with modern SW cases so am wondering if right out of the box folks are trying to make them into long range wonders.
 

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