And that is where it will come down to the public to decide if the changes are worth it. I have been using a Giraud for years and don’t plan to change but if I was I would be looking at both the Hornady and Henderson to see what does what I want and need and at a good cost.
"new" ripoff trimmer from Hornady
- Thread starter Benchrest Braxton
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And that is where it will come down to the public to decide if the changes are worth it. I have been using a Giraud for years and don’t plan to change but if I was I would be looking at both the Hornady and Henderson to see what does what I want and need and at a good cost.
shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
Big companies knock off other big company designs every day. Sometimes they get by with it and sometimes they don't. Even when they don't the end is always lawyers make 5 mil to get the plaintiff $100k.
The company I worked for (before I went there) had to pay another firearm manufacturer $10/ gun of one model made because of a lawsuit. By the time the suit settled my company had already "improved" on the design enough that the payout was minuscule compared to the legal hours billed.
While I was there an individual left our company and went to another. Soon after that company started producing a product with a design we had patented. Settlement was same. The much smaller company paid us $10 a gun (about enough total for one expensive corporate dinner to celebrate the win).
My point is that should Henderson sue over this so-called rip-off it will cost more than it's worth. Now for the asset side of all this. Henderson can market that his is the original and better than the copy for pennies compared to lawyers and, if done correctly, will see a very nice boost in sales. See post 106.
Now, as for Hornady, throughout the history of the company they have bought companies and created jobs for AMERICAN workers. Fact is, they bought companies that had good products but poorly run (in many cases) that would be long gone now.
And @jthor, just for your inquiring mind, I am not a paid Hornady shill and have paid for every thing Hornady I have ever purchased.
The company I worked for (before I went there) had to pay another firearm manufacturer $10/ gun of one model made because of a lawsuit. By the time the suit settled my company had already "improved" on the design enough that the payout was minuscule compared to the legal hours billed.
While I was there an individual left our company and went to another. Soon after that company started producing a product with a design we had patented. Settlement was same. The much smaller company paid us $10 a gun (about enough total for one expensive corporate dinner to celebrate the win).
My point is that should Henderson sue over this so-called rip-off it will cost more than it's worth. Now for the asset side of all this. Henderson can market that his is the original and better than the copy for pennies compared to lawyers and, if done correctly, will see a very nice boost in sales. See post 106.
Now, as for Hornady, throughout the history of the company they have bought companies and created jobs for AMERICAN workers. Fact is, they bought companies that had good products but poorly run (in many cases) that would be long gone now.
And @jthor, just for your inquiring mind, I am not a paid Hornady shill and have paid for every thing Hornady I have ever purchased.
I was born and raised about 40 miles west of the Hornady factory. Always heard it was a good place to work and my family reloaded thousands of their projectiles over the years. I started seeing accuracy issues with them years back, so I migrated away from their rifle bullets.
In the case of this trimmer issue, I've been eyeballing the Hendersen for the last few years as I find case prep rather laborious.....so I might just pull the trigger on the Hendersen simply to support the small guy. Buy once, cry once.....the difference in price isn't going to matter 10 years from now if I buy a quality product that's reliable.
In the case of this trimmer issue, I've been eyeballing the Hendersen for the last few years as I find case prep rather laborious.....so I might just pull the trigger on the Hendersen simply to support the small guy. Buy once, cry once.....the difference in price isn't going to matter 10 years from now if I buy a quality product that's reliable.
Exactly what I was thinking. $800 to trim brass. Gimme a break
nmkid
Gold $$ Contributor
Winner, winner. My old hands would appreciate either model.
Straightshooter1
Gold $$ Contributor
I also use a Giraud and love it. And you're right, the Giraud can be faster. But for some of us, with old hands, holding onto the cases to trim when doing a large amount, that can be a problem. If you've got old, stiff sore fingers, the Henderson is a great way to go.
Sometimes you have to turn mother's picture to the wall, hold your nose, then proceed.However, there are many things that can cause 'stomach acid' in today's brave new world but a trimmer isn't one of them, at least not from what I see in today's world gone mad.
I really like, I mean really like their pistol bullets, XTP's and rifle bullets, Vmax. So, I will keep buying those in large quantities as long as they are still available, and I can afford them.
One compliant I have is Hornady covets their reloading manual like it's the first edition of Hemingway's classic, "For Whom the Bell Tolls." Whereas Nosler allows you to download specific bullet loading data free. Apparently Nosler figure it out, they make more money, a lot more money selling bullets than reloading manuals. Hornady has yet to discover this but there is always hope.
I just want some load data for their 223 60 Vmax. So, with my old brain, I have to memorize it from the display copy of their manual at my local shop and hope I get it right.Even the local shop figured it out, they make a lot more money from selling bullets, powder and primers than reloading books thus they have display copies you can peruse. (My vent of the day
)
K22, I happened to have my Polaroidcamera with me today.Red colored loads are maximum!
powderbrake
Gold $$ Contributor
I was in the manufacturing business for 45 years, the last 32 years as a manufacturer of products sold worldwide through reps, and distributors. I went from design engineer to president of the company. I have 5 patents on products we sold, and have been sued for one unpatented design. We won on a directed verdict before we even put on a defense. If I saw a good design element, and if I could use it, I did. Was that a copy? Maybe so, but I am not ashamed of copying some design aspects. That is the road to better products, use the good ideas. No one seems to be complaining about loading presses and dies looking the same.
Effective patents are ridiculously expensive to obtain and to defend, and if someone violates all but one of your claims, he is not violating the patent. Mechanical patents typically have 10 to 100 claims. Small companies, in a limited market like reloading, may not be able to afford to patent. Think $10,000 to $50,000, can you sell enough to pay for the patent before you start making money?
And why "copy" another guys' product? That's easy, there is a market segment that you are not getting, it is in your business area and capability of manufacturing, so it will add to your bottom line. So you check patent status, define what the product features are, and tell your engineering people to design it. This is not significantly cheaper that starting from scratch on a design, you still have to do all the work, including prototype and final product testing, as well as writing tech manuals, and advertising for product release.
So let's not confuse everyone with this Big guy, Little guy stuff. The Big Guy was once a little guy. They all have to go through the trials and tribulations of the markets they desire to serve, and they have to play buy the rules of that market. Typically people who are not in Product design and manufacturing business have no idea of the rules. This is capitalism in action, good ideas prevail, if they sell, the product prevails, if not, the company fails.
Note that the copy was of a Henderson, great outrage developed. Would that had happened if the copy was of Giraud, Lyman, Midway, Wilson, little Crow, or other manual trimmers? I suspect Hornady went after the high end to add to their sales volume. For those who swear off Hornady for "copying" that's OK, just buy your stuff from another company that you have determined has not "copied" anything. That alone is a tougher job than you can imagine.
Summary: Copying is not BAD. All designs include some copying. Patents are expensive and not foolproof.
Design the best product you can, and if it sells. good for you.
Effective patents are ridiculously expensive to obtain and to defend, and if someone violates all but one of your claims, he is not violating the patent. Mechanical patents typically have 10 to 100 claims. Small companies, in a limited market like reloading, may not be able to afford to patent. Think $10,000 to $50,000, can you sell enough to pay for the patent before you start making money?
And why "copy" another guys' product? That's easy, there is a market segment that you are not getting, it is in your business area and capability of manufacturing, so it will add to your bottom line. So you check patent status, define what the product features are, and tell your engineering people to design it. This is not significantly cheaper that starting from scratch on a design, you still have to do all the work, including prototype and final product testing, as well as writing tech manuals, and advertising for product release.
So let's not confuse everyone with this Big guy, Little guy stuff. The Big Guy was once a little guy. They all have to go through the trials and tribulations of the markets they desire to serve, and they have to play buy the rules of that market. Typically people who are not in Product design and manufacturing business have no idea of the rules. This is capitalism in action, good ideas prevail, if they sell, the product prevails, if not, the company fails.
Note that the copy was of a Henderson, great outrage developed. Would that had happened if the copy was of Giraud, Lyman, Midway, Wilson, little Crow, or other manual trimmers? I suspect Hornady went after the high end to add to their sales volume. For those who swear off Hornady for "copying" that's OK, just buy your stuff from another company that you have determined has not "copied" anything. That alone is a tougher job than you can imagine.
Summary: Copying is not BAD. All designs include some copying. Patents are expensive and not foolproof.
Design the best product you can, and if it sells. good for you.
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
This really grinds my gears, I cannot continue to support a company that blatantly rips off another small businesses product. I am honestly speechless at this move by them. I could not believe my eyes when the video popped up on youtube.
Hornady clearly has zero shame in their business tactics and I will not be buying another single product from them!
Here is their comment form, just sent my displeasure with their scummy business tactics.
Contact Us - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
Hornady® Manufacturing 3625 West Old Potash Hwy Grand Island, NE 68803 USA Phone: 1-800-338-3220 Phone: 1-308-382-1390 Fax: 1-308-382-5761 Customer Service Hours Monday - Thursday 8:30 AM - 4:30 PM Central Fr...www.hornady.com
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
Have a price yet?
I think they said the new Hornady was $620.
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
Thanks
Out of my price range for sure.
Straightshooter1
Gold $$ Contributor
Yeah, I find the outrage regarding the Henderson interesting as I don't recall any of that for the Trim-It II, which happens to have the same cutting head and much the same design as Giraud's Tri-Way.
kd4avp
Gold $$ Contributor
powderbrake summed it up very nicely. I work in high end furniture. We knock off competitors stuff all the time. We go to shows, look at ideas and designs....come back to our engineers and knock a version off. Often looking to make it less expensive for the consumer. In the furniture world, price is king. Much of the savings are internal to the piece (frame, cushion, etc) and you never see it.
Henderson more than likely does not wish to take something like this to court. Its expensive...and lawyers love to have billable hours. No offense to any lawyers on the forum intended.
Here's the thing...We are a pretty small market in the big scheme and innovators often lack the marketing capacity to justify patent costs and defense if violated, especially by a Chinese company.
China's mentality and education system is great for laborers but poor for thinkers and innovators. But America actually excelled in the area of innovation for many years, though not as much as previously. Mostly because our education system and workforce has grown to be more and more like the Chinese model, but without the manufacturing base here, anymore.
Bottom line, China is not geared toward innovation due to communism but is geared toward cheap mfg.
I do NOT excuse them for stealing our intellectual design work, simply because they can make it cheaply...patent or not. Ever try to defend a patent against a China owned company? Good luck!
Right is right and wrong is wrong. Doesn't matter who it is.
It makes me sick to my stomach to see people blaming the designer when it really comes down to who has the most money.
China's mentality and education system is great for laborers but poor for thinkers and innovators. But America actually excelled in the area of innovation for many years, though not as much as previously. Mostly because our education system and workforce has grown to be more and more like the Chinese model, but without the manufacturing base here, anymore.
Bottom line, China is not geared toward innovation due to communism but is geared toward cheap mfg.
I do NOT excuse them for stealing our intellectual design work, simply because they can make it cheaply...patent or not. Ever try to defend a patent against a China owned company? Good luck!
Right is right and wrong is wrong. Doesn't matter who it is.
It makes me sick to my stomach to see people blaming the designer when it really comes down to who has the most money.
it's more about blatantly copying the entire design and trying to clearly undercut hendersonYeah, I find the outrage regarding the Henderson interesting as I don't recall any of that for the Trim-It II, which happens to have the same cutting head and much the same design as Giraud's Tri-Way.
DJSBRS
Site $$ Sponsor
Are you comparing your barrel nut system to the Savage original or Remington (Remage) copy? How many more barrels would you sell if you didn't offer your barrel nut system?
Any product that is good, will be copied with a slight variation or improved to continue the sale. Hornady has always improved their products. This is the third upgraded version of their trimmers that I know of.
DJ
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Except this version isn't theirs unless Todd approved.
urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
That is an overstatement. One is not a "copy of the entire design". They are using the same slider rails, general arrangement. And they are both red.
There are lots of presses in reloading that look EXACTLY the same... No lawyers involved.
I dare say that Dillon has been copied by everyone. As well as RCBS. And those were copies of old Reddings and Lymans.
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