30 BR struggle is real

[RGRobinett]

Not on this barrel. I have only tried 2 powders. LT30 and N130. .0093 brass necks and a bullet that measures.30895. If I use a .308 Bullet then I will have over 2th neck clearance. But it will be easy enough to give it a try.

Considering your even "fatter" than my bullet(s), I'd bet on a marked [precision/group] improvement if you try a .323" bushing. These two powders are notoriously somewhat/slightly "slower" than the H-4189. With Lt-30 and N-130, most people are using/reporting 35.5 - 36.0 Gr. charge weights.

That you are experiencing excessive pressure is very unusual. This is our 26th season of using the 30 BR/.330" neck chambers, and I have been involved in a single instance of one producing excessive pressure - this includes with bullet weights up to 125Gr.

Yet another overlooked option: N-120, or, if you already have them, H-4227, or, IMR-4227 - with these, the burn-rate is not on the [almost]"too slow" side of the equation . . . and they ALL "shoot". These last three CAN produce excessive pressure. RG

 

[jackieschmidt]

The rifle is not remotely in tune.
Hart barrels are button pulled, and tend to run tighter on the groove diameter than Bartlien’s and Krieger’s.

The odds of something being wrong with the Bartlien Barrel is pretty remote.

IMHO, you are shooting way too light. If you are shooting a 112 to 118 grn bullet, you should be shooting around 35.4 to 35.6 grns of either LT-30 or N-130. .308 4 groove Bartlien’s are dead on .3080 on the groove diameter. Compared to most button barrels, they are loose.
Set you neck tension at .002. Jam the bullets about .010 into the lands. Stick 35.5 grns of N130 in it with a Federal 205 Primer.

And, as has been said, forget about ES and SD. Your velocity will be around 3050 fps out of a 22 to 24 inch barrel

I mentored a shooter last month who had almost the same problem as you are experiencing. We put my load and my bullets in it and it came to life.

That same load combo will work with the 112 or 118 BIB.

 

[OmegaRed]

My only input is this: you have a few people on this thread with more knowledge on the subject than the rest of the forum combined. Do what they say, they won't steer you wrong.

 

[Websurfer]

Double Jake
Was the first picture - 5x - shot with your old barrel or new barrel?

 

[Shooter13]

Well that's not good. Personally I would let my target dictate how I moved forward and put the chronograph away. Try cleaning less, as in not to bare metal. Do away with annealing as a test. Carbon in the case necks is your friend. Think lubrication. I.e. lower extreme spreads. Just a few things to ponder. Good luck and keep us posted.
Paul

Agree but do ONE thing at a time as you test!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Op, do you have anyone in your area that can help you? I really think a mentor might be of help. I mean that in the best possible way and I want to help. If you're in my area, come on by! I'd be glad to help. I'm not sure what your experience level is but it sounds like you are either coming from long range or else, have very little experience loading and actually tuning. A lot can be learned by reading but not even close to just a single day at the range with an experienced shooter who is use to shooting the small 30 cals. Frankly, they are the easiest to tune cartridges I've ever seen and nothing comes close. I do NOT mean to sound condescending at all but just trying to get you on the right path by the shortest route. I'll ask again though...did you have flags out? Their importance can NOT be over stated. Don't dismiss that! Ask experienced shooters if you don't wanna take my word for it. Flags are possibly MORE important to shooting small than even the best rifle anywhere!

ps...I see you're in Vt. Might be a tad far to drive for a range session but I wanted to offer. The good news is that there are shooters in the NE that I'm sure would be happy to help you in any way, if you all can work it out. Might even make a new lifelong friend from it! That's the best thing about SR BR and really most any of the shooting sports...the people! In sr br for score around this part of the country, very few people keep secrets. It's just part of it to share and help the other guy to beat ya! Go to a local br match and meet them. That's probably your very best bet to getting on the right track here. If you're new to this, start with your mouth shut and your ears open. A lot of good shooters up there are likely willing to help anyone willing to listen.

 

[Doublejake]

Double Jake
Was the first picture - 5x - shot with your old barrel or new barrel?

Old Barrel

 

[Doublejake]

Op, do you have anyone in your area that can help you? I really think a mentor might be of help. I mean that in the best possible way and I want to help. If you're in my area, come on by! I'd be glad to help. I'm not sure what your experience level is but it sounds like you are either coming from long range or else, have very little experience loading and actually tuning. A lot can be learned by reading but not even close to just a single day at the range with an experienced shooter who is use to shooting the small 30 cals. Frankly, they are the easiest to tune cartridges I've ever seen and nothing comes close. I do NOT mean to sound condescending at all but just trying to get you on the right path by the shortest route. I'll ask again though...did you have flags out? Their importance can NOT be over stated. Don't dismiss that! Ask experienced shooters if you don't wanna take my word for it. Flags are possibly MORE important to shooting small than even the best rifle anywhere!

ps...I see you're in Vt. Might be a tad far to drive for a range session but I wanted to offer. The good news is that there are shooters in the NE that I'm sure would be happy to help you in any way, if you all can work it out. Might even make a new lifelong friend from it! That's the best thing about SR BR and really most any of the shooting sports...the people! In sr br for score around this part of the country, very few people keep secrets. It's just part of it to share and help the other guy to beat ya! Go to a local br match and meet them. That's probably your very best bet to getting on the right track here. If you're new to this, start with your mouth shut and your ears open. A lot of good shooters up there are likely willing to help anyone willing to listen.

Just got back from Dinner with 6 Very good people who are all very good shooters and one of them is sure to win the match. I’m not new to reloading but I’m newer to the 30BR and bench rest shooting. Yes I listen to everything every one says. I have nothing to lose and obviously everything I know and have tried is not working.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Just got back from Dinner with 6 Very good people who are all very good shooters and one of them is sure to win the match. I’m not new to reloading but I’m newer to the 30BR and bench rest shooting. Yes I listen to everything every one says. I have nothing to lose and obviously everything I know and have tried is not working.

You're definitely on the right track. I hope you picked up the tab as it'd be money well spent. Lol! Loading is not the same as tuning and the small 30's are quite forgiving but yes, toss the chrono and learn to read groups and flags. I think you'll be happy in very short order if you can get one of those guys to be of help to ya.

One more time...Are you shooting over some sort of flags? It can NOT be over emphasized how important that is. If you think it's calm and doesn't matter...you're not listening. Lol!

 

[Websurfer]

DoubleJake,
Son, if you shot that 50 5X, STICK WITH IT! That's a dang fine score and a nice target. Keep doing that, and maybe you'll be able to string some of those 50 5X targets together. Do that often enough, and you got this! If you shot that score with the old barrel, go back to the old barrel.
Tony Boyer wrote in his book that he could tell if a barrel would shoot or not in around 15 rounds. Now, Boyer was the greatest group shooter ever, so there's that, but if you've honestly got 400 rounds down the tube and all you're getting is garbage, well, a lot of folks wiser than me have weighed in on what to do.
I recently put a Pac-Nor barrel (thanks for the recommendation, Randy!) on my Panda, and within 50 rounds I found several 3-shot groups in the ones. That's testing two different bullets, one powder (differing amounts by .3 grains), and one primer. And I placed that amazing barrel on a proven chassis with proven components (action, scope, trigger, stock, rest/bags, etc.). Further testing revealed a load that, in perfect conditions, consistently shoots 3-shot groups under the ones. And, this is a 30BR.
All I need to do is learn how to steer it better in non-perfect conditions - LOL! The gun and that load flat-out shoot. Now it's on me. And my successfully reading conditions. Which is a lot...
Assuming you have a proven chassis, rest and bags, flags, brass prep, loading techniques, plus all the other equipment you need; and if all you changed is the barrel (excepting the world-class advice provided by many already), then you need to get a different barrel. I say Pac-Nor, but YMMV.
Oh, yes, the chrono. Don't forget about it, but understand that what you do on the target is far more important than EV and SD and other data. Maybe, through your chrony, your barrel is telling you something. LISTEN to it!
Again, if you shot that 50 5X target, then go back to whatever you did when you shot that score, and keep doing it. Keep your old barrel til it stops delivering great results. Then go Pac-Nor.
Just my .02

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

DoubleJake,
Son, if you shot that 50 5X, STICK WITH IT! That's a dang fine score and a nice target. Keep doing that, and maybe you'll be able to string some of those 50 5X targets together. Do that often enough, and you got this! If you shot that score with the old barrel, go back to the old barrel.
Tony Boyer wrote in his book that he could tell if a barrel would shoot or not in around 15 rounds. Now, Boyer was the greatest group shooter ever, so there's that, but if you've honestly got 400 rounds down the tube and all you're getting is garbage, well, a lot of folks wiser than me have weighed in on what to do.
I recently put a Pac-Nor barrel (thanks for the recommendation, Randy!) on my Panda, and within 50 rounds I found several 3-shot groups in the ones. That's testing two different bullets, one powder (differing amounts by .3 grains), and one primer. And I placed that amazing barrel on a proven chassis with proven components (action, scope, trigger, stock, rest/bags, etc.). Further testing revealed a load that, in perfect conditions, consistently shoots 3-shot groups under the ones. And, this is a 30BR.
All I need to do is learn how to steer it better in non-perfect conditions - LOL! The gun and that load flat-out shoot. Now it's on me. And my successfully reading conditions. Which is a lot...
Assuming you have a proven chassis, rest and bags, flags, brass prep, loading techniques, plus all the other equipment you need; and if all you changed is the barrel (excepting the world-class advice provided by many already), then you need to get a different barrel. I say Pac-Nor, but YMMV.
Oh, yes, the chrono. Don't forget about it, but understand that what you do on the target is far more important than EV and SD and other data. Maybe, through your chrony, your barrel is telling you something. LISTEN to it!
Again, if you shot that 50 5X target, then go back to whatever you did when you shot that score, and keep doing it. Keep your old barrel til it stops delivering great results. Then go Pac-Nor.
Just my .02

Yessir! Not sure if same "node" or not as his last target but both look good to me, minus the one a bit out at 200 in the last pic. It's where it should be for a very light pickup or letup in the condition too. Hence, I keep asking about flags. Granted, even with flags at 200, that one ain't terribly bad at all but it does look like a very slight pick up or let up to me. Hard to tell that much even with flags, much less without anything.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Another thing. Tune the Rifle at 100 yards, where you have the fewest probabilities of error.
Get it shooting nice round .200 groups at 100.with the occasional screamer.
If it shoots at 100, it will shoot at 200.
Remember, 30BR’s tend to be very sensitive to seating depth. Once you find what the combination likes in the way of seating depth, carve it in stone and avoid changing it unless you see the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse coming over the Burm.
Only change the seating depth in .005 increments. I recommended a light jam, because many very good shooters go with that.
The fact is, my combination likes about a .010 jump.

 

[Ccrider]

My only input is this: you have a few people on this thread with more knowledge on the subject than the rest of the forum combined. Do what they say, they won't steer you wrong.

^^^^^^^!!!!!!!^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!!!^^^^^^!!!!!!!!!!^^^^^

 

[Old Navy]

If it were me (and I hadn't already), I would:

• Check neck clearance. Maybe tighter neck on new chamber?
• Check all fasteners
• Try a different primer (seating to slight crush)
• Stop annealing
• Try another scope
• Clean less rigorously

• Clean less rigorously!

 

[AlNyhus]

Another thing to check that's often overlooked is case length....using a chamber length checker gauge/plug.

For example, I have 30BR chambers done with two different reamers that are both the same case length by the reamer print. But when checked with my chamber length gauge, they are .010 different. If I was running the brass length just .010 back from max in one chamber, that brass length would be bottomed out in the other.

A couple other things to check...bolt nose clearance to the back of the barrel. And extractor clearance to the back of the barrel. With the pin assy out, push the bolt hard forward and open it slowly..if you hear a faint click, it can be the extractor touching the barrel face. Sometimes the cone angle is off on the barrel. It doesn't hurt to pull the barrel, put some Magic Marker or DyKem on the back of the barrel, put it back on and cycle the bolt several times and take it back off and inspect for any contact. Also, make sure the barrel is properly tightened.

 

[Doublejake]

You're definitely on the right track. I hope you picked up the tab as it'd be money well spent. Lol! Loading is not the same as tuning and the small 30's are quite forgiving but yes, toss the chrono and learn to read groups and flags. I think you'll be happy in very short order if you can get one of those guys to be of help to ya.

One more time...Are you shooting over some sort of flags? It can NOT be over emphasized how important that is. If you think it's calm and doesn't matter...you're not listening. Lol!

Yes over flags. I shot a 250 18x. On the 100 and a 245. 8x on the 200. Nobody shot a 250 on 200. It was tough conditions. I’m using the chronograph to see how stable the Velocities are. I am seeing the difference on target. I also have all of Jack Nearys group sheets printed out for reading groups.

 

[Doublejake]

DoubleJake,
Son, if you shot that 50 5X, STICK WITH IT! That's a dang fine score and a nice target. Keep doing that, and maybe you'll be able to string some of those 50 5X targets together. Do that often enough, and you got this! If you shot that score with the old barrel, go back to the old barrel.
Tony Boyer wrote in his book that he could tell if a barrel would shoot or not in around 15 rounds. Now, Boyer was the greatest group shooter ever, so there's that, but if you've honestly got 400 rounds down the tube and all you're getting is garbage, well, a lot of folks wiser than me have weighed in on what to do.
I recently put a Pac-Nor barrel (thanks for the recommendation, Randy!) on my Panda, and within 50 rounds I found several 3-shot groups in the ones. That's testing two different bullets, one powder (differing amounts by .3 grains), and one primer. And I placed that amazing barrel on a proven chassis with proven components (action, scope, trigger, stock, rest/bags, etc.). Further testing revealed a load that, in perfect conditions, consistently shoots 3-shot groups under the ones. And, this is a 30BR.
All I need to do is learn how to steer it better in non-perfect conditions - LOL! The gun and that load flat-out shoot. Now it's on me. And my successfully reading conditions. Which is a lot...
Assuming you have a proven chassis, rest and bags, flags, brass prep, loading techniques, plus all the other equipment you need; and if all you changed is the barrel (excepting the world-class advice provided by many already), then you need to get a different barrel. I say Pac-Nor, but YMMV.
Oh, yes, the chrono. Don't forget about it, but understand that what you do on the target is far more important than EV and SD and other data. Maybe, through your chrony, your barrel is telling you something. LISTEN to it!
Again, if you shot that 50 5X target, then go back to whatever you did when you shot that score, and keep doing it. Keep your old barrel til it stops delivering great results. Then go Pac-Nor.
Just my .02

That target was old Barrel. Old Barrel is not an option since I F it up. lol

 

[Doublejake]

what is the bullet you are testing with?

Ken H 112 8 Ogive.

 

[Doublejake]

I think the issue is with the Brass. I am having tight bolt closure on about 15% of the brass even though they measure good. I had a very hot load for this barrel when I fired about 120 rounds through it that was loaded up for the old barrel. I believe my bolt is cone faced and that the brass bases are bent from the cone from the high pressure rounds. Culling out the tight closure ones not by measuring them because they are measuring good. But by bolt close with out firing pin etc. I will see how that works.

 

[Websurfer]

Did the same company that chambered your old barrel chamber your new barrel? Different reamers have different dimensions, and those different dimensions can have HUGE impacts.
One rule of thumb I’ve learned is to have the same company chamber my barrels. That way, all die settings can stay the same (which saves a lot of work).
The chamber on my new Pac-Nor barrel is identical (as far as I can measure) as my old barrel.