Tired .17-5.56 annealing again

[Wolfdog91]

So after a lot of peoples suggestions,tried another annealing test. Got a new nozzle for my torce sonits a much more precise flame. Making sure to just hit the necks and not over annel them with the help of some 750° tempaiq instead of flame change.
Now I put mine on the outside of the case because.....well I can actually see it, Neve really understood the whole deal with putting it on the inside of the caes because it's really hard to see . Anyhow 10 cass same bunch of brass. Took about 6sec in the drill


Die is set up exactly the same as last time annnnd


Got one successful case form ...so safe to say the KAK .17-5.56 works a bit different then traditional deals. And for something that's supposed to use 1x fired 5.56 brass .... I Mean the whole 39 pieces I've messed dup out of the 200 ood successful ones I've made up, I think that perfectly acceptable. I Mena the amount of brass I'd need to save to justify a busing die set up and what not....egh just not worth it imo. Now if I was trying to do this with brand new super fancy Lapua cases or something then yeah I reckon but again its ment for you to be able to go just pick up free 5.56 rang brass or buy dirt cheap once fired and run with it

 

[Webster]

So after a lot of peoples suggestions,tried another annealing test. Got a new nozzle for my torce sonits a much more precise flame. Making sure to just hit the necks and not over annel them with the help of some 750° tempaiq instead of flame change.
Now I put mine on the outside of the case because.....well I can actually see it, Neve really understood the whole deal with putting it on the inside of the caes because it's really hard to see . Anyhow 10 cass same bunch of brass. Took about 6sec in the drill
View attachment 1522133View attachment 1522134View attachment 1522135

Die is set up exactly the same as last time annnnd
View attachment 1522136
View attachment 1522137
Got one successful case form ...so safe to say the KAK .17-5.56 works a bit different then traditional deals. And for something that's supposed to use 1x fired 5.56 brass .... I Mean the whole 39 pieces I've messed dup out of the 200 ood successful ones I've made up, I think that perfectly acceptable. I Mena the amount of brass I'd need to save to justify a busing die set up and what not....egh just not worth it imo. Now if I was trying to do this with brand new super fancy Lapua cases or something then yeah I reckon but again its ment for you to be able to go just pick up free 5.56 rang brass or buy dirt cheap once fired and run with it

Brass doesn't anneal at 750F for a fraction of a second. Tempilaq is not supposed to be used with a 2000F flame on it. It has to be heated indirectly. No-one knows where the 750F is a temp to anneal at came from. You have to get the necks glowing red. It's impossible to anneal the case head by heating the neck.

From your picture your putting the hotest part of the flame on the neck. It probably doesn't matter but I push the neck deeper into the flame so it wraps around the neck. I think it heats the neck more evenly. No point contact.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Are you taking unsized brass and sizing the necks from .250+ outside to .170 inside neck diameter in one pass?

 

[Outrider27]

Somewhat disagree with you Webster. You do not need to get the necks glowing red. I don't flame anneal - I have a 5 pound electric lead pot with an alloy that melts at 840F. I can assure you, having measured the hardness of the necks when learning the system, that they anneal fine dipping the necks in the lead and watching the heat "line" creep up into the shoulder after a few seconds. Just a thought - there are several ways to skin that cat, and mine is but one of them.

 

[Webster]

Somewhat disagree with you Webster. You do not need to get the necks glowing red. I don't flame anneal - I have a 5 pound electric lead pot with an alloy that melts at 840F. I can assure you, having measured the hardness of the necks when learning the system, that they anneal fine dipping the necks in the lead and watching the heat "line" creep up into the shoulder after a few seconds. Just a thought - there are several ways to skin that cat, and mine is but one of them.

How long do you keep them in the lead. How do you determine hardness.

Good data:

 

[muleystalker]

If you had a bushing die and used a bushing for a .20 then used a bushing for .17 cal you wouldn't have any problems and could achieve results without annealing, just use a good case lube like Imperial Die Wax. put up a WTB post.

 

[BoydAllen]

Here is an article on annealing that has some very good information. I suggest that you read it at least twice, taking your time.

You are being redirected...

IMO there is a LOT of bad information on the internet about annealing. For shooting the use of the word annealing is misleading, because what we are really looking to produce is brass that is somewhere between work hardened and too soft, which is what you get if you make necks glow. There are some applications where, because of the particular powder bullet combination, soft necks will apparently work, but for most that does not give the best results. My experience with annealing has been helping friends get set up to deal with a couple of specific problems, that we were able to solve. In one case, it was to get consistent shoulder bump while retaining enough neck tension for ammo loaded for magnums, with heavy bullets, fed from a magazine. We were able to reach that goal. The other case was to create more consistent bullet seating force for some .223 brass, for a varmint rifle, which we managed to do without overcooking the brass. For applications where there is a need to manually control time in flame, a cheap electronic metronome or free phone app., set for 60 beats per minute, will audibly tick off the seconds, which is helpful. On the bad information, I once watched a video by a metallurgist that did not understand that for shooting, we do not want dead soft case necks. He took the term annealing literally, and got into a lot of theory that would have been appropriate if that was the actual goal.

 

[Webster]

Here is an article on annealing that has some very good information. I suggest that you read it at least twice, taking your time.

You are being redirected...

IMO there is a LOT of bad information on the internet about annealing. For shooting the use of the word annealing is misleading, because what we are really looking to produce is brass that is somewhere between work hardened and too soft, which is what you get if you make necks glow. There are some applications where, because of the particular powder bullet combination, soft necks will apparently work, but for most that does not give the best results. My experience with annealing has been helping friends get set up to deal with a couple of specific problems, that we were able to solve. In one case, it was to get consistent shoulder bump while retaining enough neck tension for ammo loaded for magnums, with heavy bullets, fed from a magazine. We were able to reach that goal. The other case was to create more consistent bullet seating force for some .223 brass, for a varmint rifle, which we managed to do without overcooking the brass. For applications where there is a need to manually control time in flame, a cheap electronic metronome or free phone app., set for 60 beats per minute, will audibly tick off the seconds, which is helpful. On the bad information, I once watched a video by a metallurgist that did not understand that for shooting, we do not want dead soft case necks. He took the term annealing literally, and got into a lot of theory that would have been appropriate if that was the actual goal.

I agree with everything in your post.

I did a lot of annealing of brass and hardness testing at work before I retired. At home I annealed with a single handheld torch. I heated until I saw a red glow.. I annealed only to stop neck splitting and losing cases. At that time I never thought about bullet release and neck tension. Bullets seated with the same force as non annealed cases. Testing the strength of the neck with pliers indicated the necks lost very little hardness. Reloading for a 6BR varmint hunting rifle. The rifle always shoots under .5" with a good load. Most guys annealing don't understand it takes a long time at temp to get a drop in hardness, they only talk about temperature. Look at the chart on post #5. I minute at 450C you only get about 4 units in hardness drop.

 

[brokeasajoke]

I know I know you can't go by looks, but they just don't look like they've been in the flame long enough. When I do my hornet brass to fire form they show more discoloration as well as my 338L when doing the dark room method. That's neither scientific or perfect but thus far it's worked

 

[JSH]

Looking at the anneal on Lapua brass and LC virgin gives one an idea of where to go. I aim for neck shoulder area, it works for me.

To the OP, are you running the brass into a 223 die with the expander and decapper removed? It will take it down some. Some dies more than others. Basically an intermediate step. We are trying to make a solid do what a liquid does is how I look at.

How much pressure are you putting on the press handle. Slow and easy I have found gives better results.

Buddy was trying to make 17-223 some time back. His results looked much like yours. I asked a lot of questions that he had a hard time giving an answer. Finally set his phone up and took a short video. I jumped on the phone and called him. OMG I thought he was cracking walnuts!!! Heavy handed and more brawn than brains, he is a big fellow and gets frustrated fairly easy.
He calmed down and eased them in with slow steady pressure and had success.

 

[Wolfdog91]

Speaking o vdoe just got done editing the one for this experiment. It's only 13 min so hop you don't mind me posting it vs writing out an explanation, I seem to never get what I want across in word like I can in video lol. Also this post is a continuation of the last two I posted involving this little cartridge

Looking at the anneal on Lapua brass and LC virgin gives one an idea of where to go. I aim for neck shoulder area, it works for me.

To the OP, are you running the brass into a 223 die with the expander and decapper removed? It will take it down some. Some dies more than others. Basically an intermediate step. We are trying to make a solid do what a liquid does is how I look at.

How much pressure are you putting on the press handle. Slow and easy I have found gives better results.

Buddy was trying to make 17-223 some time back. His results looked much like yours. I asked a lot of questions that he had a hard time giving an answer. Finally set his phone up and took a short video. I jumped on the phone and called him. OMG I thought he was cracking walnuts!!! Heavy handed and more brawn than brains, he is a big fellow and gets frustrated fairly easy.
He calmed down and eased them in with slow steady pressure and had success.

 

[JSH]

Sent you a PM. Pretty sure I can tell you and explain over the phone way quicker than I can type it all out.
If your not running the case into a FL 223/5.56 die FIRST…….
From what I saw, your annealing is fine, known once fired brass anneal after.
Some may call me crazy (won’t be the first or last) your at a bad point on the stroke of the ram when the neck is sizing.

 

[Webster]

Speaking o vdoe just got done editing the one for this experiment. It's only 13 min so hop you don't mind me posting it vs writing out an explanation, I seem to never get what I want across in word like I can in video lol. Also this post is a continuation of the last two I posted involving this little cartridge

Looked at the video. The guy doesn't know anything about annealing. 750F for a fraction of a second does not anneal. You may be getting a little stress relief. Tempilaq is never supposed to be used with a flame directly on it.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

You will always have issues if you don't step down size the necks. I HAVE to even with a 20p. You going basically 100% smaller than the 20p. 0.030 ish 20p, 0.060 ish for the 17.

 

[JSH]

There are rights and wrongs of annealing for sure. But it is far from the witch craft some make it out to be, needing dried bat wings and spider lips.

I stood cases up in a pan of water and used a torch for I do t know how many years. Spinning cases between your thumb and index finger, over a bucket of water, I guarantee you will drop it before you ruin it.

 

[Oso]

I load for a 17-222 and the trick is a combination of annealing and stepped/incremental reduction. This will reduce risk of collapsed shoulders. A fired .223 / 5.56 case has a neck ID close to 6mm. Start with .223 and then .20 cal, and finally .17 cal. Depending on how the brass feels during the .20 cal resizing, I may elect to anneal a second time before the .17 reduction. Otherwise, I anneal after the .17 cal resizing to offset any work-hardening so that I have more consistent neck tension. Don't forget to keep the necks lightly lubed throughout the process.

There are several options of inexpensive torch-style annealers ($300), such as the Ugly Annealer. Take some of the guess work out and simplify your life. Why Not... for the price of a cheap firearm or a couple nights of drinking while still feeling good about being a caveman using only fire with minimal technology!

Good Luck

 

[Wolfdog91]

Sent you a PM. Pretty sure I can tell you and explain over the phone way quicker than I can type it all out.
If your not running the case into a FL 223/5.56 die FIRST…….
From what I saw, your annealing is fine, known once fired brass anneal after.
Some may call me crazy (won’t be the first or last) your at a bad point on the stroke of the ram when the neck is sizing.

Hay boss man sorry I've been busy the last few days , tried giving you a call earlier but I live int he middle of nowhere and my signal kept dropping. Got a lot of cloud cover lately

 

[Wolfdog91]

Are you taking unsized brass and sizing the necks from .250+ outside to .170 inside neck diameter in one pass?

Yeppers. Same as my last two posts in this caliber

 

[Wolfdog91]

You will always have issues if you don't step down size the necks. I HAVE to even with a 20p. You going basically 100% smaller than the 20p. 0.030 ish 20p, 0.060 ish for the 17.

About 15-25% case loss. I've made about 220 pieces so far and really the man big fails at when I try to do something other then just lubing and using work hardened brass. But like I've said before this was made to use 1x fired mil surp brass not new once fired. Honestly the only reason I've done these experiments is because I keep getting told I HAVE to do XYZ..and instead of being rude I figured I could at least try them , since I have the stuff

If I was using nice Lapua or something expensive I'd go drop the cash for a bushing set up but when I have buckets and same head stamp for next to nothing... The return on investment just ain't there for me ....might put a WTB up Soo just to get one and try though but the 60 off pieces I've messed up for the 220 good one in have ...egh can still cut them up for .300blk or something.

That being said y'all KAK actually responded to my videos and this is what they had to say ....they company who came up with the caliber and designed the dies

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I watched the KAK video on setting the shoulder. The brass already had the necks sized down( can see it clearly), he stated the brass is freshly annealed when you receive it from them. He than lightly lubes the case body and neck, sized using the full length Redding 17/556 die. This would result in very few crushed and clean wrinkle free shoulders. Especially if no lube is applied to the shoulders.