Hornady Podcast on barrel tuners

[Dimner]

sometimes while the reading wind, i break wind and I worry about down wind wind readers.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

sometimes while the reading wind, i break wind and I worry about down wind wind readers.

Just don't blow the flags over.

 

[DiRTY DOG]

.

 

[DiRTY DOG]

"...the tuner testing that we did... and I think admittedly Jaden didn't follow the tuner manufacturer's recommendations for adjustment when he did his testing right..."
- Miles Neville Hornady Product Engineer, on Believe the Target #117

Compare that to Jayden refuting claims he didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions by saying, how does anyone know if he followed the instructions since he never revealed what brand tuner he tested.

Confirmation that their tuner testing was literally a dumb test. Didn't test the manufacturer's instructions? Used bulk 556 ammo for testing tuners/accuracy? Literally a bad joke.

Miles basically admits their podcast on reloading only really applies to beginner type reloader, not to advanced reloaders. Like we all knew but Hornady didn't say, they came off as being the ultimate authority on reloading for accuracy. Erik straight up says the type of accuracy standard Miles reloads to, just isn't good enough. (Miles' most accurate competition rifle).

 

[Karlandco]

I've watched a few Hornady Podcasts. It kinda seems their testing on equipment and reloading are not very scientific. I get the sense it's for purposes of the podcast. How intricate would a test be if only to gain viewers of a podcast on you tube? I recall a recent video where the guest "a Hornady employee" did not see any improvement in group size from powder charge manipulation. His analysis indicated it was all random dispersion and different charges simply displayed patters within a given number of shots..basically they all shoot the same, just faster or slower. If you believe that you could conceivably toss out everything we've learned the last 100 yrs. That kinda stuff gets viewers!!! But it's BS. They gave no information on the rifle/equipment, experience of the shooter, rest, rear bag, conditions etc etc. The hour or so I spent watching it only made me question why I watched a damn video instead of going to the range. I was really hoping for something to sink my teeth into, instead it was like jello "empty". However, it does make me proud to be a dedicated customer to the company's that put in the analysis and testing to get good info out. That info often concludes one must put the work in to get the desired result out. Bottom line is "You must do your own testing". There are no shortcuts to the truth. Best advice some of you guys gave me on here years ago was "load up 6-800 rounds and go shoot em like there wasn't gonna be a tomorrow. You'll learn everything you need to know....Thanks for that and I see better through the scope now with less screen time

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

"...the tuner testing that we did... and I think admittedly Jaden didn't follow the tuner manufacturer's recommendations for adjustment when he did his testing right..."
- Miles Neville Hornady Product Engineer, on Believe the Target #117

Compare that to Jayden refuting claims he didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions by saying, how does anyone know if he followed the instructions since he never revealed what brand tuner he tested.

Confirmation that their tuner testing was literally a dumb test. Didn't test the manufacturer's instructions? Used bulk 556 ammo for testing tuners/accuracy? Literally a bad joke.

Miles basically admits their podcast on reloading only really applies to beginner type reloader, not to advanced reloaders. Like we all knew but Hornady didn't say, they came off as being the ultimate authority on reloading for accuracy. Erik straight up says the type of accuracy standard Miles reloads to, just isn't good enough. (Miles' most accurate competition rifle).

Agreed, but didn't one of them state they moved the tuner in full revolutions? Is there still a tuner mfg that recommends full revolutions at a time? FWIW

 

[LVLAaron]

Agreed, but didn't one of them state they moved the tuner in full revolutions? Is there still a tuner mfg that recommends full revolutions at a time? FWIW

Yeah... Litz and Hornady both kinda did the same thing:

* Say tuners dont work
* Test tuners incorrectly
* Reinforce that tuners do not work
* Internet trolls scream that TUNERS ARE THOROUGHLY DEBUNKED WIZARD PISS


And such is the current state of so many things in the world right now.

 

[DiRTY DOG]

Yeah... Litz and Hornady both kinda did the same thing:

* Say tuners dont work
* Test tuners incorrectly
* Reinforce that tuners do not work
* Internet trolls scream that TUNERS ARE THOROUGHLY DEBUNKED WIZARD PISS


And such is the current state of so many things in the world right now.

Also:
*Refuse to address why they failed to test the manufacturer's instructions

Litz for example has used tuners in the past, prior to his book. Did he seriously always adjust tuners with full revolutions instead of small increments? He HAS to know tuners are not meant to be adjusted in huge full revolutions, how could he possibly not understand that? Did he intentionally tank his tuner testing for publicity for his book?

Litz shooting a tuner:

 

[LVLAaron]

There might be some "I can't explain how or why this actually works, so I refuse to admit that it works"

 

[David Milisock]

I don't think this statement will upset anyone and that we can all agree that...if you don't know the value of any adjustment to the tuner and how it should affect the result on the target...you are guessing. Nothing more, nothing less and it doesn't matter what kind of tuner or what it's on.
Simple enough, right?

Now, apparently their test would support that statement but not much else. I'm with the op on this...Why would they spend time and money trying to disprove what so many know to be true. IMHO, any test that starts off with such large adjustments exemplifies the lack of understanding of what they are testing, err...tuners. Starting with low quality ammo would only reinforce that. You have to trust each shot so poor quality ammo is not conducive to that basic aspect of testing, pretty much anything. That gets us to, GIGO...garbage in, garbage out. I would think they know that much so it makes me wonder what their desired outcome actually is. It might fool some people but you don't have to be particularly bright to understand that aspect of any test, with or without regard for their experience or lack of, regarding tuners.

I'm not a smart guy but if I were doing a test on a tuner, I'd start with the best ammo I had for my rifle. Use the manufacturers instructions and if I thought needed, I would use what I learned from those instruction and my tests to vary a small degree from the recommended procedures. Controlling every aspect of the tests as much as possible. If I couldn't gain or maintain controls, I'd get a pizza and a beer!

 

[David Milisock]

Reading wind...we never stop learning and we all make mistakes. You know all this but it's the biggest challenge to really shooting and winning. The wind is my friend! Yeah right!

Absolutely RIGHT! Wind is one reason why I say that there's always a bit of luck in a long-range hit.

Another reason is in my experience I believe that there is something greater than us. I choose to believe that because sometimes there is simply no other explanation, so believe that we're great or that there's something that leans situations in a way that makes us successful. Helps us use our brains, like following a manufactures instructions! Believe in miracles but work your ass off!

 

[Bill Norris]

Absolutely RIGHT! Wind is one reason why I say that there's always a bit of luck in a long-range hit.

Another reason is in my experience I believe that there is something greater than us. I choose to believe that because sometimes there is simply no other explanation, so believe that we're great or that there's something that leans situations in a way that makes us successful. Helps us use our brains, like following a manufactures instructions! Believe in miracles but work your ass off!

100% AGREE. TRUTH.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Absolutely RIGHT! Wind is one reason why I say that there's always a bit of luck in a long-range hit.

Another reason is in my experience I believe that there is something greater than us. I choose to believe that because sometimes there is simply no other explanation, so believe that we're great or that there's something that leans situations in a way that makes us successful. Helps us use our brains, like following a manufactures instructions! Believe in miracles but work your ass off!

I absolutely know that's right. Some would call it....The wind blows ya out and the wind also blows ya in. I've been blessed and cursed to be on both sides of that coin. I can say, winning a Nationals or setting a record, etc..takes a lot of hard work but the stars also have to align. Not a doubt in my mind. In fact, when I was fortunate enough to with the 2019 UBR Nationals in custom class...I did it with my SECOND BEST RIFLE! I was fortunate to have two very good guns, maybe three, but the one I was banking on shooting well with, I dug a hole with...while my Custom just kept on hammering. Led through all but the last target at 200 that day with my 2nd best rifle, in a tough field. I wanna say 111 guns in the match. The last target at 200 was just unshootable. Wind and mirage were stupid! Couldn't see bullet holes and they could be literally anywhere in those switches. The end of the range I finished on was the tough end but I got out shout bigly on the last target. Enough to lose the 200 but not enough to give up the grand. Anyway, it was just my day, but He let me know on the last target that He was in control! That gun carried me on that weekend and yes, it was a good weekend for tuners. I normally don't see a lot of change for two days but both days, with all three rifles, were days where having the gun dialed in to the current condition made a ton of difference. HE made me work for it but I was blessed in the end. Absolutely, a lot more than skill comes into play at big matches. It certainly takes some luck or whatever you want to call it. It's a day I'll always remember. But all season long, my Unlimited rifle was on fire. My custom was very good but it kinda shocked me in that crowd for that rifle to rise to the top like it did. I started using the other two guns to pick conditions for my custom pretty early on in the match. Great and blessed weekend, for sure. On top of that, my good friend that rode with me to the match won Modified class! Two champs in the same truck! Nice ride home!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I'm not a smart guy but if I were doing a test on a tuner, I'd start with the best ammo I had for my rifle. Use the manufacturers instructions and if I thought needed, I would use what I learned from those instruction and my tests to vary a small degree from the recommended procedures. Controlling every aspect of the tests as much as possible. If I couldn't gain or maintain controls, I'd get a pizza and a beer!

Yes, but ya know what...my first tuner experience was with 3 commercially available(at the time) tuners that all had VASTLY different instructions for using them. What we found is that they all three absolutely changed groups size, shape and poi, but we knew nothing more than what the target told us and that the instructions did not produce repeatable results. So, we dug out depth mics and started... moved all three, quite different in design tuners .001 at a time until we were able to quantify the value of .001 tuner travel, on each respective model.. on the target. Frankly, none were even close to right.

Low and behold, I've been preaching the same song ever since then, 2008 or 2009 now. Ya gotta know the value of whatever increment you move in and maybe you should establish that increment value for yourself, as all three of those makers' were drastically incorrect with their printed instructions, which makes ya wonder how they come to those vastly different conclusions. Hmmm. Yes, they worked, every one of them did. Just not the way the makers said. These were all made by respected people in the BR community. Some of that lore lives on today as the gospel to some.

All of this really piqued my curiosity to the point where I invested thousands of hours(still) and tens of thousands of dollars testing as much as I can including two separate rounds of vibration analysis, both live fire and laboratory measurements being taken. Yes, it's a deep hole that many talk about but few have traversed very far into it. Still more to learn but I honestly think we have a practical understanding of tuners and how to make them work, while there are still things that I don't know and haven't tested as yet. Sooner or later, I'll do a third round of testing. Been taking notes since the last round regarding what to test for specifically that might or might not help further advancement of managing the timing of bullet exit and muzzle position and dampening.

Still though...I'm with ya on the not being a smart guy. I rely on others for that stuff and 10 year olds for fixing my smart phone. Lol!

 

[David Milisock]

Yes, but ya know what...my first tuner experience was with 3 commercially available(at the time) tuners that all had VASTLY different instructions for using them. What we found is that they all three absolutely changed groups size, shape and poi, but we knew nothing more than what the target told us and that the instructions did not produce repeatable results. So, we dug out depth mics and started... moved all three, quite different in design tuners .001 at a time until we were able to quantify the value of .001 tuner travel, on each respective model.. on the target. Frankly, none were even close to right.

Low and behold, I've been preaching the same song ever since then, 2008 or 2009 now. Ya gotta know the value of whatever increment you move in and maybe you should establish that increment value for yourself, as all three of those makers' were drastically incorrect with their printed instructions, which makes ya wonder how they come to those vastly different conclusions. Hmmm. Yes, they worked, every one of them did. Just not the way the makers said. These were all made by respected people in the BR community. Some of that lore lives on today as the gospel to some.

All of this really piqued my curiosity to the point where I invested thousands of hours(still) and tens of thousands of dollars testing as much as I can including two separate rounds of vibration analysis, both live fire and laboratory measurements being taken. Yes, it's a deep hole that many talk about but few have traversed very far into it. Still more to learn but I honestly think we have a practical understanding of tuners and how to make them work, while there are still things that I don't know and haven't tested as yet. Sooner or later, I'll do a third round of testing. Been taking notes since the last round regarding what to test for specifically that might or might not help further advancement of managing the timing of bullet exit and muzzle position and dampening.

Still though...I'm with ya on the not being a smart guy. I rely on others for that stuff and 10 year olds for fixing my smart phone. Lol!

It is a deep hole, every barrel will be different. In the end I guess it's trial and error.