RCBS matchmaster vs more expensive dies?

[groupofgiraffes]

I'm going to start reloading 6 Dasher. What are the reasons for going with some of the higher priced dies like from SAC vs something like the RCBS matchmaster?

Has anyone used the cortina precision micrometer sizing dies? Are they any good?

 

[LHSmith]

IMHO -keep them simple. Forget all that micrometer stuff and use standard FL dies and inline seaters in conjunction with die shims and Skips seater shims. The trick is to find a die that most closely matches your chamber.............or use Harrells or have Whidden make you a custom.

 

[madmixerman]

+1 on Harrells

 

[wildcatter]

The biggest advantage to better dies is easier on brass, by not over sizing as much with the sizing die. The biggest advantage with the seating die is better consetricity.

The Dasher is known to be a cartridge most run very hard to get all it has out of it, and this is where the advantage is shooting it. Over working brass is even more critical in this situation.

If your going to go with a Custom chambered barrel, go with good dies. If tight neck you need a FL die before you turn the necks. Before using my neck turners sizing mandrell I always FL size.

My poor man's setup is a FL sizing die before first firing. Then a Redding body die for body sizing, then my Wilson neck die to get the neck tension and concentrisity I want. Finally a Wilson seating die.

My only better option is a Custom FL Bushing Die instead of the body and neck die I mentioned above. But if you want a FL Bushing die, I prefer sending 2 or 3 cases fired and unfired to one of the custom die makers and having a true FL Bushing die, this is my preferred die with a Wilson seater, micro top or the standard top. The Micrometer Top is handier than Skips bushings, I have both but prefer a Micromoter Top.

 

[Doom]

Your title seems to be asking for advice but you really didn't give much to go on. It would be desirable to know some additional information.

Shooting competitively?
Realistically what maximum range and how frequently?
Normal range?
What scale do you currently have?
How many rounds per year?
Rifle info including barrel and chamber/reamer?
AND maybe most importantly
What are your goals/expectations?

 

[groupofgiraffes]

Your title seems to be asking for advice but you really didn't give much to go on. It would be desirable to know some additional information.

Shooting competitively?
Realistically what maximum range and how frequently?
Normal range?
What scale do you currently have?
How many rounds per year?
Rifle info including barrel and chamber/reamer?
AND maybe most importantly
What are your goals/expectations?

I wasn't really asking for advice, it was more of a general question as to why someone would choose one over the other, but since you asked I am having a Bartlein barrel done by southern precision rifles. I'm not sure what reamer they use, but I have asked for a copy of the schematic. He did confirm it is a .130 freebore. It will be going on an ARC CDG action.

I have competed a few times in a local NRL22-like event and plan to travel to start competing in a monthly prs match when it warms up a bit. I fired about 1500 6.5 CM rounds last year. The range I normally go to that is close is 200 yards but there is a slightly less convenient 1000 yard range about an hour away.

My goal is to get just about as precise of a gun as I can. I'm partially mimicking Francis Colon's setup that averages something like .35 MOA and if I can even get close I'll be happy so let's say the goal is average .5 MOA on 5 shot groups

 

[neckturner]

I wasn't really asking for advice, it was more of a general question as to why someone would choose one over the other,

As I'm setting up for a new calibre (6mm GT), I've just gone through die selection. First set scratched/gouged the brass and left a significant, tangible mark in the bullet even after I adjusted neck tension and lubed the inside case neck (I was told not to worry about the case but that they'd polish the die if I sent it back, and not to worry about the bullet). Second set marked the bullet, although the case was in pretty good shape. Then I picked up the SAC set. The case is fine and the bullet stem, which is radiused and polished, left not even a visible mark on the bullet. The SAC dies can be multi-calibre - for example, The Seating Die works on my 6mm GT and will work on my .308, all the stuff you need to change comes with it.

Sometimes you get what you pay for. Sometimes in features, and sometimes in consistency. Sometimes there are bargains - any number of good F-Class shooters use Lee collect neck sizers.

For example, if you're neck sizing, the TiN coated bushings, which cost lot more than steel, are easier on the neck and size with less force, which I believe results in slightly less runout.

For example, micrometer seating heads are much easier to setup than regular ones. Much. And the SAC head seems really precise (haven't tested it yet).

But any good set of dies will do the job for most people most of the time.

 

[Doom]

If it were me, I would be looking at powder handling/scale response are being a higher priority than worrying about the micrometer dies. PRS is not Benchrest or F Class.

 

[groupofgiraffes]

If it were me, I would be looking at powder handling/scale response are being a higher priority than worrying about the micrometer dies. PRS is not Benchrest or F Class.

Fair enough, I've got an RCBS charge master link which seems to work well for what I have done but I am not opposed to investing in something like an autotrickler if the charge master does not prove up to the task.

As to the dies, I don't like having the attitude of saying something is not important because "PRS is not Benchrest or F class". If I am investing the money in a good set of dies, I don't want to get something that sucks just because the sport is seen as inferior by some guy on the internet. I am leaning in the direction of going custom on the sizing die, however my initial question was to try to understand from first principles why someone would choose a cheaper non custom vs a more expensive non custom. I didn't post the specifics of the situation initially just because people tend to get too caught up in the specifics of what I am doing, just like you did here, rather than just answering the question I have. So thanks for proving my point.

As I'm setting up for a new calibre (6mm GT), I've just gone through die selection. First set scratched/gouged the brass and left a significant, tangible mark in the bullet even after I adjusted neck tension and lubed the inside case neck (I was told not to worry about the case but that they'd polish the die if I sent it back, and not to worry about the bullet). Second set marked the bullet, although the case was in pretty good shape. Then I picked up the SAC set. The case is fine and the bullet stem, which is radiused and polished, left not even a visible mark on the bullet. The SAC dies can be multi-calibre - for example, The Seating Die works on my 6mm GT and will work on my .308, all the stuff you need to change comes with it.

Sometimes you get what you pay for. Sometimes in features, and sometimes in consistency. Sometimes there are bargains - any number of good F-Class shooters use Lee collect neck sizers.

For example, if you're neck sizing, the TiN coated bushings, which cost lot more than steel, are easier on the neck and size with less force, which I believe results in slightly less runout.

For example, micrometer seating heads are much easier to setup than regular ones. Much. And the SAC head seems really precise (haven't tested it yet).

But any good set of dies will do the job for most people most of the time.

Great information, thank you!

 

[6.5 forever]

My Whidden die has done me well.

 

[William Vogel]

Fair enough, I've got an RCBS charge master link which seems to work well for what I have done but I am not opposed to investing in something like an autotrickler if the charge master does not prove up to the task.

As to the dies, I don't like having the attitude of saying something is not important because "PRS is not Benchrest or F class". If I am investing the money in a good set of dies, I don't want to get something that sucks just because the sport is seen as inferior by some guy on the internet. I am leaning in the direction of going custom on the sizing die, however my initial question was to try to understand from first principles why someone would choose a cheaper non custom vs a more expensive non custom. I didn't post the specifics of the situation initially just because people tend to get too caught up in the specifics of what I am doing, just like you did here, rather than just answering the question I have. So thanks for proving my point.


Great information, thank you!

I’ve got two 6Dashers. I don’t compete but I shoot 700 yards with precision. My chambers are cut with an Alpha Legacy reamer and I use Alpha OCD brass in the Dashers. I have a Redding FL bushing die and a RCBS matchmaster micrometer seater die. I anneal every firing. While a custom die could be better, I have great results from my equipment. During load development it’s nice to have the better seating die for dialing different seating depths. I wouldn’t use Alpha brass without the reamer because they are built for each other and I believe the neck thickness is the reason. You need the reamer print to compare the brass measurements. My Dashers shoot 1/2 MOA at 700 yards.

 

[cp generation]

I'm going to start reloading 6 Dasher. What are the reasons for going with some of the higher priced dies like from SAC vs something like the RCBS matchmaster?

Has anyone used the cortina precision micrometer sizing dies? Are they any good?

I use both the Cortina micrometer sizing die and the mandrel die that Erik makes they do exactly what they are made for.

 

[JFrank]

I can’t think of one reason to chose a sizing die other than chamber fit. Harrell’s does that for you by simply shipping three fully formed cases and just like magic you’re good to go. Of course Wilson in line seating dies are King !

Full Length Die

For the best fit on Full Size Die - please call (540) 380-2683 Hardened stainless steel .002 undersized for easy chambering. Can be cut to length for short chambers. Comes in PPC, BR Remington, 6.5 x 47 and Dasher.

www.harrellsprecision.com

 

[Doom]

Fair enough, I've got an RCBS charge master link which seems to work well for what I have done but I am not opposed to investing in something like an autotrickler if the charge master does not prove up to the task.

As to the dies, I don't like having the attitude of saying something is not important because "PRS is not Benchrest or F class". If I am investing the money in a good set of dies, I don't want to get something that sucks just because the sport is seen as inferior by some guy on the internet. I am leaning in the direction of going custom on the sizing die, however my initial question was to try to understand from first principles why someone would choose a cheaper non custom vs a more expensive non custom. I didn't post the specifics of the situation initially just because people tend to get too caught up in the specifics of what I am doing, just like you did here, rather than just answering the question I have. So thanks for proving my point.


Great information, thank you!

@groupofgiraffes ,

I apologize for not interrupting your original post correctly. I haven't used the Matchmaster dies. But in my personal opinion I think that with barrel/reamer that you have I would go the custom resizing die as a minimum. It cost more but the benefits in the long run with brass life should help. This is especially true if you replace the barrel and use the same reamer in the future.

Good luck.

 

[LHSmith]

Matchmaster Dies have been only out for some 2-3 years. RCBS's entry into bushing dies coupled with a micrometer seater. Talk about late to the party. They will be made to the same internal dimensions as their standard FL sizing die- sort of a compromise so one die will fit most chambers. Custom dies and semi-custom like Harrells are made to fit YOUR chamber. Of course you could get lucky and RCBS dies or any off the shelf die will do a decent job. You would think RCBS would have at least offered their "premium" dies with crossbolt style lockrings.
What are SAC dies?

 

[neckturner]

What are SAC dies?

Modular Sizing Dies Archives - Short Action Customs, LLC.

Your Foundation For Precision

shortactioncustoms.com

 

[Rickhem]

I got a set of the Matchmaster dies for a 6mmARC. I also have a couple sets of the older RCBS Competition dies. Here's a few comparisons and observations:

• New Matchmaster sizing dies use a bushing to size the case neck, and that bushing is not included. Other brand bushings will fit, but not all. I have a bushing from a set of Redding 6mmBR dies that works with my Matchmaster dies, and I can buy others if need be. The older Competition dies used pretty standard sizing dies, not bushing dies, so if neck sizing with the bushing die is a priority for you, Matchmaster dies have that.
• Seating die from the new Matchmaster dies uses a guide sleeve within the die that has an O-ring very slightly blocking the bullet from dropping through that sleeve. That measn you can drop your bullet into the seating window whenever you want and it won't drop through, it'll stay there until you pull the lever on your press to raise the case and seat the bullet. Older competition dies do not hold the bullet, they let it pass through, so you'll have to move the case up into the die a bit before dropping your bullet into the window on the seating die.
• The seating die on the older Competition dies use an extended shell holder that is turned down to a diameter that will allow the shell holder to pass up inside the seating die. The newer Matchmaster dies use a standard shell holder and the case that you're using only moves up into the die until the shell holder contacts the bottom of the die in your press.

So my thoughts now. I have been using the Competition dies in .223 and in 7-08 for a while. My 7-08 dies are so old that they're the ones RCBS used to offer in the wood box. My .223 dies are the standard plastic box. I really REALLY like those seating dies. Like we all do, I have a process for my reloading steps, and I position the primed cases and bullets ergonomically on my bench. I'll take a case, drop the powder in it, then place it in the shell holder with my left hand, while finding the lever for my Rock Chucker with my right. As I begin pulling the lever and raising the case, I'll pick up a bullet and drop it into the window in the seating die. The bullet drops down through the sleeve and orients itself onto the case mouth, where it is seated to my designated OAL by completing a full cycle of the lever on the press. All very smooth and effortless, bullets seat without any marring, and the OAL is very reproducible. Since the Matchmaster dies don't use that extended shell holder, the seating stem on the die has to be positioned much lower, and for my 6mmARC application, that stem blocks the window where you'd drop the bullet into the sleeve in the die. I hate it. It may not be a big deal for a longer case like a 30-06 or any of those length cases, but for my 6mmARC, it's a constant annoyance. Something as simple as an extended shell holder for the Matchmaster dies would remove that interference, but that's not how they're offered.
As for the sizing dies, I've never really had an issue with loading on standard full length sizing dies, but I do use a Redding bushing die for my 6mmBR. Since the latest greatest is to use bushing dies for sizing, I'll give that advantage to the Matchmaster dies.

My advice would be to get a resizing die that matches your preference for how you want your brass handled. People were neck sizing with full length dies for years before bushing dies existed, but bushing dies do offer options that no other dies can match. Buy that die separetely, and as a stand alone purchase. Then find a seating die that aligns the bullet with the case before seating it. There are may to pick from, but I personally love that window on the RCBS Competition dies. The micrometer adjustment is, in my opinion, not the sole reason to pick a seating die. Yes, it is faster when setting up the OAL initially, but you really don't touch it after that. Their marketing will tell you that you can write down the setting and return to that setting in the future, but who loads by a setting on their seating die? You'd load to the prior OAL, and use that setting to get you there, which can be done just as easily with the non-micrometer dies. The seating dies are also available as stand alone purchases and going forward, I'll be buying each of those individually.

 

[Murray Brook]

@Rickhem
A seating die that I purchased similar to the RCBS one is the Frankford Arsenal seating die. I was really surprised how straight this die seats bullets and has the advantage of doing many calibers. I have Forster Ultra seater, Lyman BR, RCBS Comp seater dies and this FA die is just as good except for the Forster die which has a very slight advantage. The FR die has the advantage of being more versatile and very well priced. JMO

 

[Kiwi Palma]

Hi,

Reading the original OP question, it depends on what you want the ammunition to be used for and the level you want to use it for.
Why would you choose to use a higher priced die over the cheaper ones?
Let's start with what market the various dies are aimed at:
'Standard' series dies, aimed at the hunter, plinkers, budget constrained. These dies are mass produced and are no frills in any form dies, good to use in any chamber in said calibre. Will work with any case maker and components and produce ammo when set up correctly to work with 98+ percent of firearms in said calibre with acceptable performance. Ie Lee/Lyman dies and the other mainstream brands without bushings etc.
'Premium Standard' series tighten tolerances and make better uniform ammunition for a slightly higher price and may have some better design features added ie Lee Collet sizing dies - this may be the market area of Redding/RCBS series vs Lee Lyman.
'Delux' series stard adding more features like bushes and floating/VLD seating stems into the mix, more consistent and tuneable to user requirements and the specificrifle it is being used in, entry level for more serious use rather than general reloading - ie match or competition use or long range hunting where ammunition performance and consistency become more important. Ie Redding 'S Type' dies
'Match/Competition' series, designed for use in making seriously consistent and accurate ammunition used in high end systems, designed to work with higher quality components with tighter manufacturingtolerances, Palma, PRS, ELR events, have full control of every variable, tight tolerances and high quality control with everything being effectively tool less for making adjustments, tends towards use in more custom systems with less sloppy factory tolerances being catered for - you dial them out in the setup. Ie Redding Competition Die Set, RCBS Matchmaster series, Wilson Inline Dies etc, components used start to become more critical in the dies setup ie projectile shape for seating stem may need to be changed to VLD or even Custom made
'Custom' series especially when 'Full Custom', for serious level users with their own chamber reamer and specific components being used or adjusted ie neck turned brass and/or custom projectile, dies made to match their chambers, more useful in wild cats calibres and makes ammunition specifically for one chamber only (may need factory adjustments made for next barrel with same reamer used) - brass work minimalised between firings and extended life, theoretically more accurate ammunition made as brass formed/sized to chamber it is being fired in, may be of beneficial use with extra hot loads - within reason, may be of use in extreme long range competition ammunition or bench rest events, most users will find little to no benefit at this level above the competition/match dies as return on additional cost compared to normal dies ammunition performance negligible but may have psychological benefit- we do tend to be a little OCD in this sport and bragging rights/snobbish with equipment.
To simplify this, the more expensive dies get selected to easier make better quality and consistent ammunition at the expense of cost and user needs - you may not be able to make plinking ammunition with your top end customised match setup any quicker than you match ammunition or at all depending on the setup but your match ammunition will be highly consistent if you do your part right.
Then again, enough match quality ammunition gets made on Lee and Lyman dies when used properly, it may be down to good luck in getting a good set of dies and they match your press perfectly for your needs and technique.

 

[209jones]

I'm OK with the mindset that a sizing die shud be made along with the chamber at the time of mfgr when installing a custom bbl. As to whether a Treible or Cortina or SAC die will help with a factory or prefit barrel, probably not going to see any difference, as you are at the mercy of a host of other factors. I have 35-40yr old RCBS comp die that I use on one gun, like the bullet window in the seater, newer ones have a prettier finish, may have a smoother operating mic head. I have Redding, Forster, RCBS, Lyman, Hornady dies, they all do what I've asked of them. Any seater can ring a bullet on a compressed load, a super tight sized neck, both issues easily fixed, get the odd time one need the plug polished up. Sizer length issues can usually be fixed with a shellholder change or mod to the shellholder. Doesn't matter how "accurately" a die is made, what exotic finish is on it, or what it costs you. won't know if it fits your need til you try it.