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Ammo Question/Tuner Question

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And it was all because of that single click? That is absolutely ridiculous?
Based on this test target, how many marks would you move at a time to get rid of the vertical in group 11? Each number on the target represents one mark, fwiw. Also, 10 was a repeatable sweet spot.

1704050522188.png
 
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@TRSR8 & @gunsandgunsmithing

Tim & Mike, with all due respect, why do you guys continue to argue about this across the internet? You both seem sure that you're correct. Maybe you are? Have you ever considered that one can be successful using either method of tuning?

In the past few months I've been chatting with people and reading everything I can find on tuning (including your same arguments on two other forums). I've been reading about tuners since the 90's. In the past I was always in the set it and forget side. However I now have a more open mind and I'm willing to try some different things. Last season I shot matches where I saw top shooters struggle in a particular match. Maybe if they would've tested their tuner during the warm up and made small adjustments. Perhaps they wouldn't have struggled as much. I even saw Jerry Stiller struggle at one of our matches. What did he do? He stood up during a card and turned his tuner a couple of clicks. I don't know that it actually helped him but he did it. He was still shooting better than I was while he was struggling. So what do I know?

Anyways, there's nothing wrong with having an open mind and trying different things. Because someone does something differently doesn't necessarily mean their wrong. I like to think that I'm going hybrid by learning from all of your (and others) experience. We'll see how that works out
 
@TRSR8 & @gunsandgunsmithing

Tim & Mike, with all due respect, why do you guys continue to argue about this across the internet? You both seem sure that you're correct. Maybe you are? Have you ever considered that one can be successful using either method of tuning?
and
In the past few months I've been chatting with people and reading everything I can find on tuning (including your same arguments on two other forums). I've been reading about tuners since the 90's. In the past I was always in the set it and forget side. However I now have a more open mind and I'm willing to try some different things. Last season I shot matches where I saw top shooters struggle in a particular match. Maybe if they would've tested their tuner during the warm up and made small adjustments. Perhaps they wouldn't have struggled as much. I even saw Jerry Stiller struggle at one of our matches. What did he do? He stood up during a card and turned his tuner a couple of clicks. I don't know that it actually helped him but he did it. He was still shooting better than I was while he was struggling. So what do I know?

Anyways, there's nothing wrong with having an open mind and trying different things. Because someone does something differently doesn't necessarily mean their wrong. I like to think that I'm going hybrid by learning from all of your (and others) experience. We'll see how that works out

Have you read the report by Kolbe, documenting vibrations and targets with and without tuners?

 
@TRSR8 & @gunsandgunsmithing

Tim & Mike, with all due respect, why do you guys continue to argue about this across the internet? You both seem sure that you're correct. Maybe you are? Have you ever considered that one can be successful using either method of tuning?

In the past few months I've been chatting with people and reading everything I can find on tuning (including your same arguments on two other forums). I've been reading about tuners since the 90's. In the past I was always in the set it and forget side. However I now have a more open mind and I'm willing to try some different things. Last season I shot matches where I saw top shooters struggle in a particular match. Maybe if they would've tested their tuner during the warm up and made small adjustments. Perhaps they wouldn't have struggled as much. I even saw Jerry Stiller struggle at one of our matches. What did he do? He stood up during a card and turned his tuner a couple of clicks. I don't know that it actually helped him but he did it. He was still shooting better than I was while he was struggling. So what do I know?

Anyways, there's nothing wrong with having an open mind and trying different things. Because someone does something differently doesn't necessarily mean their wrong. I like to think that I'm going hybrid by learning from all of your (and others) experience. We'll see how that works out
Because I've spent the last 15 years of my life doing this and not based on opinion, but actual testing and backed up by science. I strongly feel that there is a ton of bad, wrong info out there about using tuners. I back that up with science and results like the test target I just posted as support.

It's one thing to not understand something. It's another, to not understand it but to ridicule actual science is preposterous and a huge injustice to ALL of us...from the newbie to the multi-time national champs.

The target above makes my case. It's not a fluke. They virtually ALL show similar results as that one. I only use that test as an example(fired by customers) because it's a light bulb moment to anyone that does it. All of a sudden, it all makes sense, rather than randomly moving a tuner hoping for something predictable to happen. That test quantifies the value of each adjustment, on the target.

Calling something a "method" implies a methodology and should yield predictable results. Doing something randomly, or with no known predications or at least expected results from it is why so many people chase their tail and just pick a spot and hope for the best. I will say that if you don't know WHY you're moving a tuner, you probably are better off not touching it. But that target above is easy and it shows you WHY, WHEN, HOW FAR and WHICH DIRECTION to move your tuner.

I'll end with a question. If you don't have a confident answer, you're very likely chasing your tail with a tuner....

WHY do you choose whatever increment you use, when setting your tuner?

Happy New Year!
 
No answers for non competitors….sorry.
Oh, is that what it is? Lol! I was a RF competitor for a while. Lots of good folks involved. But some bad apples too, that just can't or won't allow civil and open minded discussion about tuning. Nothing against the majority, but when time and money are limiting factors, I chose to go back to CF. Won my first Nationals not long afterward, using my tuning method.

Predictably, to the point of being boringly predictable...that will likely invoke the old.."rimfire is different" argument. But science disagrees. There are differences, tuning rf vs cf, but they are far more alike than not. In cf, the ammo is all good, or it's MY fault. So, my testing is based more toward not having ammo be a huge variable that is always outside of my control.

Shooting a RF...or CF, is an art but tuning either, is not.
 
Because I've spent the last 15 years of my life doing this and not based on opinion, but actual testing and backed up by science. I strongly feel that there is a ton of bad, wrong info out there about using tuners. I back that up with science and results like the test target I just posted as support.

It's one thing to not understand something. It's another, to not understand it but to ridicule actual science is preposterous and a huge injustice to ALL of us...from the newbie to the multi-time national champs.

The target above makes my case. It's not a fluke. They virtually ALL show similar results as that one. I only use that test as an example(fired by customers) because it's a light bulb moment to anyone that does it. All of a sudden, it all makes sense, rather than randomly moving a tuner hoping for something predictable to happen. That test quantifies the value of each adjustment, on the target.

Calling something a "method" implies a methodology and should yield predictable results. Doing something randomly, or with no known predications or at least expected results from it is why so many people chase their tail and just pick a spot and hope for the best. I will say that if you don't know WHY you're moving a tuner, you probably are better off not touching it. But that target above is easy and it shows you WHY, WHEN, HOW FAR and WHICH DIRECTION to move your tuner.

I'll end with a question. If you don't have a confident answer, you're very likely chasing your tail with a tuner....

WHY do you choose whatever increment you use, when setting your tuner?

Happy New Year!
I've read where you've said all this before on another forum. I've tried to replicate that target that you've posted (at least a few times now) in the tunnel by me with two different rifles. One with a naked Holeshot tuner and one with a naked Harrels. Both with a good lot of Midas+. Neither target looked anything like that centerfire one you've posted. Not saying your targets wrong. Just having trouble replicating it with my 2500X and X3L

Look, I'm not siding with either of you. When I saw this thread come up and both of you posting I made a mental bet with myself that you'll end up in the same argument stating the same things. And here we are.

EDIT...And I knew the post you made above (#67) was coming. You're both predictable
 
I've read where you've said all this before on another forum. I've tried to replicate that target that you've posted (at least a few times now) in the tunnel by me with two different rifles. One with a naked Holeshot tuner and one with a naked Harrels. Both with a good lot of Midas+. Neither target looked anything like that centerfire one you've posted. Not saying your targets wrong. Just having trouble replicating it with my 2500X and X3L

Look, I'm not siding with either of you. When I saw this thread come up and both of you posting I made a mental bet with myself that you'll end up in the same argument stating the same things. And here we are.

EDIT...And I knew the post you made above (#67) was coming. You're both predictable
You misunderstand PW, I have zero intention of re litigating this further, hence finishing up with a bit of humor, but when a new guy posts up his miraculous match improvement due to a single click on a tuner….as they say in the NFL…..come on man.
 
I've read where you've said all this before on another forum. I've tried to replicate that target that you've posted (at least a few times now) in the tunnel by me with two different rifles. One with a naked Holeshot tuner and one with a naked Harrels. Both with a good lot of Midas+. Neither target looked anything like that centerfire one you've posted. Not saying your targets wrong. Just having trouble replicating it with my 2500X and X3L

Look, I'm not siding with either of you. When I saw this thread come up and both of you posting I made a mental bet with myself that you'll end up in the same argument stating the same things. And here we are.
But I'm not arguing. I'm truly trying to help people learn a methodical tuning method. I stated science and asked a question is all. A couple decided to ridicule science. Why, I don't know.

As to your test target, send them to me if you have them. It's so predictable that you may be in a 1 percentile range or less, where it doesn't work but based on that, I think we can figure it out. The sine is less apparent at 50 yards but the group shapes are always there. Anything is possible but I'd like to work with you on it. Keep in mind, you have to start by quantifying the value of each adjustment with YOUR tuner. So seeing the patterns seen on my test target may not be at the same intervals. I've done the leg work on mine and several but Jerry came out with his tuner after my last vibration analysis test.
 
I played with OBT (optimum barrel time) quite a bit using Gordons reloading tool and while I never came close to a 100% perfect load it sure was close a lot and I think the errors were due to different lots of powders having slightly different burn rates. When the winds settle down a bit I plan on messing with the chrono and seeing if a difference of say 30 FPS between different ammos can be compensated by using the tuner.

@PWNolan what are the air curewnts in that tunnel like? I have never seen one but just guessing I assume they have some sort of ventilation to clear the smoke.

@TRSR8 Bless your little heart why don't you just use the ignore function on me on this and other forums and I will do the same for you and we will both be happier
 
I've read where you've said all this before on another forum. I've tried to replicate that target that you've posted (at least a few times now) in the tunnel by me with two different rifles. One with a naked Holeshot tuner and one with a naked Harrels. Both with a good lot of Midas+. Neither target looked anything like that centerfire one you've posted. Not saying your targets wrong. Just having trouble replicating it with my 2500X and X3L

Look, I'm not siding with either of you. When I saw this thread come up and both of you posting I made a mental bet with myself that you'll end up in the same argument stating the same things. And here we are.

EDIT...And I knew the post you made above (#67) was coming. You're both predictable
Yet here I am, offering to be as much help as I can to someone using two other makes of tuners. Hmmm. They all work on the same principle but they don't all work exactly the same.
 
@gunsandgunsmithing I think I'm happy (for now) with where I'm at with the 2500X/Holeshot. I have a few different settings that look good but I've settled on one that's been performing well. I've tried changing it a click or two either way and it does seem to go in and out of tune. I go back to that base setting and it's back to where I want it. 3 different outdoor range session doing that it's been pretty consistent. If I get a session (or lot of ammo) where it's not shooting like I think it should I'll experiment with other settings

I'm in the process of re-tuning the X3L (without a tube). I'll shoot another string around a good setting like your centerfire pic and see what happens. I'll let you know if I need help. I appreciate the offer
 
I played with OBT (optimum barrel time) quite a bit using Gordons reloading tool and while I never came close to a 100% perfect load it sure was close a lot and I think the errors were due to different lots of powders having slightly different burn rates. When the winds settle down a bit I plan on messing with the chrono and seeing if a difference of say 30 FPS between different ammos can be compensated by using the tuner.

@PWNolan what are the air curewnts in that tunnel like? I have never seen one but just guessing I assume they have some sort of ventilation to clear the smoke.

@TRSR8 Bless your little heart why don't you just use the ignore function on me on this and other forums and I will do the same for you and we will both be happier
That's the best thing about OBT is that most people claim it gets them close. I'm all for anything that gets people to move their tuner in smaller increments.
 
@gunsandgunsmithing I think I'm happy (for now) with where I'm at with the 2500X/Holeshot. I have a few different settings that look good but I've settled on one that's been performing well. I've tried changing it a click or two either way and it does seem to go in and out of tune. I go back to that base setting and it's back to where I want it. 3 different outdoor range session doing that it's been pretty consistent. If I get a session (or lot of ammo) where it's not shooting like I think it should I'll experiment with other settings

I'm in the process of re-tuning the X3L (without a tube). I'll shoot another string around a good setting like your centerfire pic and see what happens. I'll let you know if I need help. I appreciate the offer
First thing I'd do is to establish how far you have to move YOUR tuner to get straight vertical. That may be 1/2 mark or maybe 3 or 4 full marks. Establish that, and I think we can get somewhere with your gun and tuner. Am I wrong in saying that you need to know the value of each adjustment or else you are guessing? Seriously.. So, I'd start with that. How far in .0005 increments from perfect tune to straight vertical.
 
@JimSC

"what are the air curewnts in that tunnel like? I have never seen one but just guessing I assume they have some sort of ventilation to clear the smoke."

I've discussed the tunnel on RFC. Maybe you don't remember but they do have a ventilation system. Early on it felt pretty strong. In fact I put my bench flag/streamer on the bench and it was moving pretty good. However, the last few trips to the tunnel the air movement was very light. I could hear that the ventilation system was on but couldn't feel anything. I put my bench flag on the bench and the little sail tail that Ralph made me doesn't move
 
@JimSC

"what are the air curewnts in that tunnel like? I have never seen one but just guessing I assume they have some sort of ventilation to clear the smoke."

I've discussed the tunnel on RFC. Maybe you don't remember but they do have a ventilation system. Early on it felt pretty strong. In fact I put my bench flag/streamer on the bench and it was moving pretty good. However, the last few trips to the tunnel the air movement was very light. I could hear that the ventilation system was on but couldn't feel anything. I put my bench flag on the bench and the little sail tail that Ralph made me doesn't move
I'd take a light but consistent wind anywhere, over dead still. That's when the gremlins show up most, ime. I think a lot of those gremlins are mirage related but gremlins, either way.
 
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