Ammo Question/Tuner Question

[Doc22]

Absolute waste of time with match ammo, your supposition is flat wrong. Zero match winning shooters do this. Again cheap ammo will always be cheap, you can sort until you die it will never win a match of any quality.
The OP stated up front his interest is RFBR.

What do you consider Cheap ammo how do you define it, consistency, performance price point?

 

[TRSR8]

Your post #1 question was about “ competitive” BR shooting.
Given that, re read #14. Much below that you’re wasting time/ $. Nothing particularly complicated.
As far as what the original owner told you….BS, I’d guess he never got any good lots.
A good gun shoots good ammo( proper lot) period.
P.S. What kind of gun are we talking about that you bought?

 

[grauhanen]

Ammo my gun likes ammo my gun doesnt like. Where does it end.
I would consider CCI SV cheap ammo but some guys swear by it

While all rifles don't shoot equally well, all rifles only "like" consistent ammo. And while any box of ammo like CCI SV may have consistent rounds in them, no serious shooters swear by CCI SV because it's not reliably consistent. That's a characteristic shortcoming of all inexpensive kinds of .22LR ammo.

Look for ammo that gives good results all the time. There's no magic shortcut to finding it.

 

[PWNolan]

While all rifles don't shoot equally well, all rifles only "like" consistent ammo. And while any box of ammo like CCI SV may have consistent rounds in them, no serious shooters swear by CCI SV because it's not reliably consistent. That's a characteristic shortcoming of all inexpensive kinds of .22LR ammo.

Look for ammo that gives good results all the time. There's no magic shortcut to finding it.

I don't really subscribe to the whole "like" thing either. All my rifles shoot good/consistent ammo well

 

[BowChamp]

You will find varying philosophies about this. I’m speaking as a shooter who spent 2023 learning and experiencing this stuff for myself. While I don’t have the deep experience of the other shooters here I do offer I’ve spent a lot of time taking in a variety of angles on this problem.

Among rimfire benchrest types, where pure accuracy is at the highest levels, the prevailing practice is to take the best shooting ammo you have for the gun, tune to make it the very best, and leave that tuner setting alone on that gun and barrel. This then makes other ammo lots shoot their best too. That said, this crowd doesn’t have much use for second-rate ammo and although wind effects are essential and critical, being 50y it’s less about wind than smallbore F-class that reaches to 100y.

My first attempts at tuning led me to a tune setting that varied a few clicks per each lot. I was warned by some who didn’t consider that to be a proper tune. I think they were right because the next week it didn’t seem to repeat. It is important to tune thoroughly and get to that one reliable all-ammo tune.

I also attempted to develop tunes using a few ammo lots I had on hand. I was unsuccessful at developing a tune to specifically make my mid rate ammo perform significantly better. I think part of the problem is less-than-excellent-shooting ammo makes the tuning process itself far more guesswork than progress. In theory that should be overcome if you shoot more shots during each step of the tuning process. I think the other part of the problem is that inaccuracy of lower performing ammo mostly comes down to things unrelated to tuning. It seems to me that tuning (50y, ten-shot groups) can take a 1/4” ctc group and make is 3/16” ctc, but it can’t take a 1/2” group and make it 1/4” or even 3/8”. So at the top end of accuracy that’s awesome but at the bottom end it’s hard to even detect. (The part I can’t reconcile about this, then, is why the wrong tuner setting can shoot much worse.)

There is always the underlying question of whether sorting ammo will improve its performance. Weight, runout, rim thickness, base to ogive, etc tools exist and the only way to know if they help is to do it and see. That said I don’t think most competitors do this most of the time. Again, your mileage will differ from anyone else’s. I just took delivery of a new lot of CenterX last weekend that I had a glorious weather opportunity to test yesterday, and it showed signs of brilliance (8-9 shots really tight and 1-2 shots that opened the group about 50%). Including the fliers it still shot good but I may do some serious sorting work on it to see if I can make it go from good to great.

Well said Sir!!

I highlighted the only thing I disagree with. The wind game is very important at 50 yds. and even more important at 100yds.

 

[dgeesaman]

Well said Sir!!

I highlighted the only thing I disagree with. The wind game is very important at 50 yds. and even more important at 100yds.

I agree and you said it better

 

[BowChamp]

In no particular order these are what I'd consider good ammos to start your search with...if you're looking for good, best, consistent, my rifle likes, top tier and expensive ammo that might be Benchrest competitive.

Eley Tenex
Eley Match
Eley Team
Lapua X-Act
Lapua Midas+
Lapua Center X
RWS R-50

Edited for- Forgot to mention I'm a one setting shooter when it comes to my tuner.

 

[BowChamp]

I agree and you said it better

I knew what you meant...just poking fun.

 

[Doc22]

In no particular order these are what I'd consider good ammos to start your search with...if you're looking for good, best, consistent, my rifle likes, top tier and expensive ammo that might be Benchrest competitive.

Eley Tenex
Eley Match
Eley Team
Lapua X-Act
Lapua Midas+
Lapua Center X
RWS R-50

Edited for- Forgot to mention I'm a one setting shooter when it comes to my tuner.

Yea I like the results from my Eley match so I am going to stick with it. I saw some RWS earlier today that was $46 for a box. Thats a little overkill to me

 

[Doc22]

Your post #1 question was about “ competitive” BR shooting.
Given that, re read #14. Much below that you’re wasting time/ $. Nothing particularly complicated.
As far as what the original owner told you….BS, I’d guess he never got any good lots.
A good gun shoots good ammo( proper lot) period.
P.S. What kind of gun are we talking about that you bought?

Anschutz 54 1413

 

[PWNolan]

I was told by the guy that I bought my gun from that it doesnt like Lupua

Let's circle back on this. I have a lot of rifles. Many of which are bolt-action rifles of different makes and models. They all shoot Lapua well including my two Anschutz rifles. My guess is the previous owner of your 1413 didn't shoot enough of it to really know any better. I recommend you try some Center-X or Midas+ when you have the opportunity. As folks have said, some lot numbers are definitely better than others but I think your chances of getting a decent let are probably better than your chances of getting a decent lot of Eley Match these days. So hopefully you get to see what all the fuss is about

 

[Tony K Harper]

Yea I like the results from my Eley match so I am going to stick with it. I saw some RWS earlier today that was $46 for a box. Thats a little overkill to me

Wow! $46.00 a box. That is getting ridicules. I thought $24.00 a box was out of the reach of most shooters.

TKH

 

[TRSR8]

I agree and you said it better

Wow! $46.00 a box. That is getting ridicules. I thought $24.00 a box was out of the reach of most shooters.

TKH

Ka;ifornia premium, Tony

 

[TRSR8]

Yea I like the results from my Eley match so I am going to stick with it. I saw some RWS earlier today that was $46 for a box. Thats a little overkill to me

The last thing I leave you with, learn how to clean/maintain barrel, especially chamber to get the best out of the gun. Visit forums, especially RA and use the search function, it's all there. Most RFBR shooters will tell you, a good bore guide, rod, brush, purpose made RF solvent, are required.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

OK,,, let me preface this by saying that I am a new shooter.
So I am burning the midnight oil on these threads and forums soaking up all the info I can. So here is my question, when it comes to competition shooting, (I shoot benchrest and F Class} Ammo is arguably the most important component. However when it comes to tuning your gun different ammos require different tunes. So theoretically wouldnt it be possible to get a less expensive ammo and tune it to shoot just as well or better in my gun than a more expensive ammo.
I have a Annie 54 with a tuner.

Does this mean I need to get a few boxes of different ammo and tune the rifle to each ammo and then see which one shoots the best?

I own and shoot Match 54 my main ARA UL rifle is a 1965 1413 that has been rebarreled
But I have over the years shot and still do shoot factory barrel 54 IME you do not need to retune with different lots. But this applies to only if it was tuned correctly and is at the setting it should be at.
I will say the again from experience a factory steel barrel does tune a little differently and I believe because of the difference in how steel versus stainless steel is in regards to stiffness.
Addressing the previous owner saying your 1413 doesn’t like Lapua from experience factory barrel 54 can be picky on what will shoot in them. But if the barrel is in good condition it is a matter of just finding what will shoot. I took a factory 54 1413 to the Lapua Mesa center and it didn’t like any of the lots we tested but with the base lot I brought to compare shot a 11.86mm 10-shot group. I sold that rifle and the new owner hasn’t complained about not being able to find ammo it will shoot.
He calls me now and then to update me on how he is doing against custom rifles though he isn’t dominating he’s not finishing at the bottom either.
When you start to tune use only consistent shooting ammo doesn’t matter what brand only that it will shoot consistently something that doesn’t have have flyers and can group decent

Lee

 

[Doc22]

Hey guys thanks for all of the info as I was reading the responses, i guess I forgot to input some important information, my Anschutz doesnt have a factory barrel it has a Hart barrel. I dont know if that affects my ammo selection but thought I should mention it.

I have to say I think it is rather presumptous (however you spell it) to think that the previous owner didn't know what he was talking about with his rifle. If he tells me it doesn't like a certain type of ammo I am going to take his word on that.

@TRSR8 you have now opened a whole new can of worms. I was told that a lot of people don't clean their 22s on a regular basis. I am not against it in fact I am looking forward to it. However I just dont want to mess it up. I know not to clean from the muzzle. I assumed barrels were like bbq grills or iron skillets, you want them to have a little flavor.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I've held my tongue as long as I can. I'm not gonna say to stop doing what works for you but strictly scientifically, there is ZERO basis for some singular tuner setting that brings everything into magical harmony, where a gun shoots all ammo to it's potential or even to its potential in all conditions. Instead, science tells us that all chemical reactions, such as and including powder turning from a solid into a gas, is temperature dependent and vibration analysis showed me that bullet exit time changes with temp and lot changes. Basically anything that alters the pressure curve affects exit timing. I know this ruffles feathers but don't be mad at me...be mad at that Newton guy. But just like different loads can shoot small in cf, without a tuner, different lots can shoot small(or not) at a given tuner setting, on a rf.

Happy New Year to all!

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Yeah find the setting that gives you the most consistent exit timing and still be at the highest point of the barrel’s movement across the widest range of ammo lots.
Then let performance tell you if it is working for you.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Hey guys thanks for all of the info as I was reading the responses, i guess I forgot to input some important information, my Anschutz doesnt have a factory barrel it has a Hart barrel. I dont know if that affects my ammo selection but thought I should mention it.

I have to say I think it is rather presumptous (however you spell it) to think that the previous owner didn't know what he was talking about with his rifle. If he tells me it doesn't like a certain type of ammo I am going to take his word on that.

@TRSR8 you have now opened a whole new can of worms. I was told that a lot of people don't clean their 22s on a regular basis. I am not against it in fact I am looking forward to it. However I just dont want to mess it up. I know not to clean from the muzzle. I assumed barrels were like bbq grills or iron skillets, you want them to have a little flavor.

Sorry for assuming it was a factory barrel.
It may be that the rifle’s chamber is ideally setup for Eley with deeper engraving. From what I have seen and experienced with more bullet engraving the more it can be finicky about what ammo it may shoot good with.

Lee

 

[TRSR8]

I've held my tongue as long as I can. I'm not gonna say to stop doing what works for you but strictly scientifically, there is ZERO basis for some singular tuner setting that brings everything into magical harmony, where a gun shoots all ammo to it's potential or even to its potential in all conditions. Instead, science tells us that all chemical reactions, such as and including powder turning from a solid into a gas, is temperature dependent and vibration analysis showed me that bullet exit time changes with temp and lot changes. Basically anything that alters the pressure curve affects exit timing. I know this ruffles feathers but don't be mad at me...be mad at that Newton guy. But just like different loads can shoot small in cf, without a tuner, different lots can shoot small(or not) at a given tuner setting, on a rf.

Happy New Year to all!

National, world, championship matches won at the same settings…..dozen's, if not hundreds, including current world champion.
National, world championship, significant matches won by you……zero.
No opinion by me……simple fact.