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Load check

Allen Corneau

Silver $$ Contributor
Howdy folks,

I'm working on improving my loads for my HP silhouette rifle and hope someone here can give me a check on one of them. My friend thinks I may be over the limit but I found no pressure signs during testing. The specifics are...

Lapua 6BR brass, twice fired, 0.002" neck tension
CCI 450 primers
Berger 115 VLD Target bullets
Vihtavuori N140 powder, 30.60 grains
26" barrel, 1:7.5 twist
Remington 700 SA action

Three shots averaged 2,770 fps and gave a 0.25" group at 100 yards and 0.75" group at 300 yards.

Any insight you can share would be most welcome as I don't want to be running over safe pressures on a regular basis.

Thanks.
 
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If you rifle consistently shots .75 or less at 300 yards and you get to say .5 or .6 I doubt that will increase your scores by as much as 1 plate per match. If you have no pressure in your rifle then I see no problem. I would think time better spent on your offhand skills plus conditions. I think a lot of guys ignore changing conditions when shooting offhand.
 
Might be a little warm...

View attachment 1503578
Jager, I'm not familiar with this tool. Can you help me understand the graph on the left? What zone is considered safe, marginal, and dangerous (or whatever the colors represent)?

Can you go the other way to get an amount of powder that would be considered "safe"? I'm curious to know how far over this load might be.

Thanks.
 
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Jager, I'm not familiar with this tool. Can you help me understand the graph on the left? What zone is considered safe, marginal, and dangerous (or whatever the colors represent)?

Can you go the other way to get an amount of powder that would be considered "safe"? I'm curious to know how far over this load might be.

Thanks.
Look at the numbers above. Pmax is max allowed pressure for that cartridge 58,740 psi.
To the right in red is your actual pressure prediction based on your load info, 71,412 psi.
IME, pressure signs appear in the 70k-74k range. Depends on brass hardness. This is why working up to pressure signs is not the best way to do it, by the time you see pressure, you are well beyond pmax. In your case, about 21% over pressure
 
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Thanks for that explanation.

Is there a way to calculate backwards from the max pressure to get a powder weight to match?
 
Howdy folks,

I'm working on improving my loads for my HP silhouette rifle and hope someone here can give me a check on one of them. My friend thinks I may be over the limit but I found no pressure signs during testing. The specifics are...

Lapua 6BR brass, twice fired, 0.002" neck tension
CCI 450 primers
Berger 115 VLD Target bullets
Vihtavuori N140 powder, 30.60 grains
26" barrel, 1:7.5 twist
Remington 700 SA action

Three shots averaged 2,770 fps and gave a 0.15" group at 100 yards and 0.75" group at 300 yards.

Any insight you can share would be most welcome as I don't want to be running over safe pressures on a regular basis.

Thanks.

Your load do appear to be on the HOT side, but I don't know what your case volume is or the COAL you've loading those cartridges to or what temperature you were at when you fired them. Here's some numbers that might be of help:

6BR Remington - 115 VLD.jpg
6BR Remington 115 VLD.jpg
 
Allen, Yes, you should be roughly 28.7 when you hit recommended max pressure, plus or minus a little for your specific gun.
I don't think Vihtavouori publishes data for a 115 grain bullet with N-140.

However they do show data on the web for a 105 grain bullet and also N-140.
Along with the 105 grain, you can get a feel for the difference to your bullet by a look at the trend between the 105 and the next lighter one. Here is what that looks like.
1702923445147.png
When they don't specifically show you the pressure, you can assume that they will not go over the CIP specs for a given cartridge, so assume this is at or below the cartridge max of roughly 58.7 KSI.

So for the above example, let us assume a 6 BR with 28.9 grains of N140 and a 105 will be roughly 58.7 KSI for talking purposes.

Next step is to look at the lighter bullet and see that we are lucky they show N-140 again. Here we see 29.0 grains. So for an increase of 5 grains in bullet weight, we got to pressure with a decrease of 0.1 grains and had roughly the same speed for that 100 grain bullet.

Next, if we have nothing else to go on, we would assume another 10 grains of bullet weight would put us at pressure A) with more powder than the loads shown, or B) with less powder then the loads shown?

To play things safe, the answer would be B, it will take less powder to hit pressure with an increase in bullet weight for a small perturbation around known data. This is a general rule when experimenting with no load map and without the use of a tool like Quick Load or Gordon's Reloading Tool.

Now if we look at the Sierra data listed on this web site, we will find the following:
1702924687030.png

So, let us assume a 107 grain bullet with 27.5 grains of N-140 was near 58.7 KSI. We now have yet another sample of published data for a different bullet, but close to the one we want to try. We combine it with what we found above, where a 105 grain bullet used 28.9 grains to hit assumed pressure.

Now using the published data for a 105 grain, and a 107 grain, when we extrapolate to a 115 grain and assume the trend would be less powder for heavier bullet, we would have to assume the top end should be less than 27.5 grains shown in the Sierra manual.

We see from the QL chart, that their estimate is climbing roughly 5 to 6 KSI per grain of powder near the top. That chart shows 27.5 - 28.5 as the last step before you get flags and are likely hitting their max recommended pressure.

So the rifle to rifle differences in better quality rigs is easily on the order of 5 to 6 KSI and that amounts to the possibility that you get roughly a grain of difference between folks when it comes to max. Keeping in mind QL also assumes somewhere between 2560 to 2650 fps at the point where you hit max recommended pressure. So, it is also good to chrono yourself to see how you sit with respect to known load maps.

Even doing load ladders and watching your brass, you should always do the above homework before you set out at the range to keep out of trouble. Play it safe. Good Luck.
 
Thanks for that breakdown.

I'm going to be pretty sad if I know I can shoot sub-1/4 MOA but at the risk of blowing up the gun in my face. :(

Pivot... Would going to a slower powder, like N150, be the way to achieve the desired velocity without the over-pressure?
 
Thanks for that breakdown.

I'm going to be pretty sad if I know I can shoot sub-1/4 MOA but at the risk of blowing up the gun in my face. :(

Pivot... Would going to a slower powder, like N150, be the way to achieve the desired velocity without the over-pressure?
Allen, Why not buy Quickload or down load Gordons reloading tool (free) and do this research yourself?
 
Thanks for that breakdown.

I'm going to be pretty sad if I know I can shoot sub-1/4 MOA but at the risk of blowing up the gun in my face. :(

Pivot... Would going to a slower powder, like N150, be the way to achieve the desired velocity without the over-pressure?
If you are using a sporter profile in hunter class, you may find that slowing down takes you out of tune, but you may also find it does just fine.

You probably won't blow your face off at the pressure you are using, but you might get a gas leak or ruin your brass early.

Besides, we are talking silhouette where the fun of it is naked offhand. As long as the rig provides a stable 0.75 MOA, you should be winning.... or at least it shouldn't be uncompetitive.

ETA: nothing wrong with N-150 in this context. It is worth a look if your groups come unraveled. I have a feeling you will be fine. BTW, have you visited with David Tubb about his recommendations? I would.
 
Thanks for the recommendation. Unfortunately, it looks like neither one can run on a Mac and I'm not interested in messing around with emulators and whatnot.
Allen, the guys above have answered pretty much everything relevant to your question. I'll just add that, like you, I'm a Mac guy. Both QuickLoad and Gordon's Reloading Tools work quickly and seamlessly with Crossover (https://www.codeweavers.com/crossover/). I certainly understand the desire to run on native binaries, but once set up Crossover is pretty transparent. It's worth a look.

Good luck with your silhouette load. I shot silhouette (both rifle and pistol) a long time ago.
 
How about what others have published in other threads? Load up until you get signs of pressure, flat primers or bolt click, then back off to find your tune? Is this bad info?
 
Allen, the guys above have answered pretty much everything relevant to your question. I'll just add that, like you, I'm a Mac guy. Both QuickLoad and Gordon's Reloading Tools work quickly and seamlessly with Crossover (https://www.codeweavers.com/crossover/). I certainly understand the desire to run on native binaries, but once set up Crossover is pretty transparent. It's worth a look.

Good luck with your silhouette load. I shot silhouette (both rifle and pistol) a long time ago.
+1
Compared to many things you have in your life with more difficulty, crossover will make you wish you had done it sooner.
 
How about what others have published in other threads? Load up until you get signs of pressure, flat primers or bolt click, then back off to find your tune? Is this bad info?
Yes, and no.

Here is the caution I will give you.

Brass and chambers being what they are in this context, can mask the warnings.

Please consider the theme of having a good concept of where that pressure "could be" when you operate a ladder at the top ends. Play it safe and leave some margin for a bad day.

That said, many times there is room in the margins, but I would never recommend it to folks who have no idea where they really are. As a minimum it is hard on the brass, at a maximum you could have damage or worse.

We use margin based on sigma levels which are what most call standard deviations. We use those to stay a margin away from the possibility of getting a bad combination that causes yield or worse.

Do things enough times in that zone of pressure, and you will find out how cruel mother nature can be. YMMV
 
10 years ago I was running a fairly warm load in a 308win 24" bbl, 155 gr Scenar, Lapua LRP brass, 2.850" COAL (0.020" in lands) & 47.2 gr Varget. 2,996 fps.
Right off the bat I saw the odd ejector mark on the case head but no other pressure signs... Then Primer pockets started loosening on the 4th reload and on the 5th reload case heads hardened making it a little tougher to extract the spent brass.

Even going down to a lower node at 45.2 gr showed pressure signs because the brass was toast by then.

After adjusting some of the parameters in Quickload and matching the velocity, it showed I was loading them to about 70,000 psi.

Virgin brass seemed to mask the pressure signs fairy well.
 
+1
Compared to many things you have in your life with more difficulty, crossover will make you wish you had done it sooner.

Ok, I relented and downloaded the trial version of Crossover and got started with GRT. Still need to figure those out a lot more, but that's a separate issue.

According to GRT, my previous load (30 grains of N140) is running at 66K of pressure and 2725 fps (I measure 2760 in my gun). A similar load of 30 grains of N150 gives 61K of pressure and 2739 fps, so lower pressure and slightly better speed. I'm convinced that this deserves investigation, so I'm going to get a pound of N150 to try out for these 115gr. Ram loads.
 

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