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Neck turning for success.

GetReal said:
Thanx! Helpful.

What's kept me from neck turning is at least threefold: (1) Time needed to do it (2) cost of tooling up (3) I already get 0.35 - 0.45" groups at 100 yd - and that's good enuf for me. I don't compete benchrest - more a PRS / F-class type of mixmaster comps. It remains to be seen if my 5-15th firing of a individual cases will be as accurate as my 1st to 5th.

So I'm wondering... what kinf of addtl accuracy does neck turning get ya? From say 0.50" grp sat 100y to....what?

Thanx
Click to expand...
With this method is not too time consuming. I find the carbide turning mandrel from Sinclair fits Lapua 6br brass perfect right out of the box. So I just pull them out and turn them. When ever I used expanders I thought the fit was too loose. Tools, dont have to be expensive either. A turner, shell holder and a drill works. How much it will help, I cant say. But I shot a lot of neck tension tests at 1k and .001 can make a big difference. So I do it. In any other game outside BR, I would not. And many guys I respect say it is not necessary in BR.
 
GetReal said:
Thanx for an honest answer. :) And honestly, I'm not likely to try neck turning hoping it might help. I got into serious hard core brass prep and annealing cuz I *knew* it would help.

Maybe I'm just lazy. :)

If I were competing BR, I'd def get into neck turning. But... :)
Click to expand...
If you want to try some neck turned cases without buying related equipment, contact @DJSBRS regarding his prices.
 
Alex, I have one big question as a precision reloader and shooter of 45 years, a machinist class A (using air gauge gauges),Toolmaker class B (including cutting tungsten-carbide headed gun reamers that air gauged product at 5 millionth on an inch), and a retired Engineer with 105 credit hours of pure science, "Why are you messing around with the outside of the neck when the inside is more critical, especially since this is where the bullet sets in the cartridge and has other forces acting on it more than just the tensional forces when pressures starts spiking????"

I have been reaming necks with great success!!! Had a 7mm-08 in a Remington 700 'ⁿHeavy Varmint Special' designed for Silhouette shooting!!! 24" BBL, 1:9.25" twist, using Nickel Plated Federal Match 308 necked down and reamed, shooting Sierra 160gr SBT Gamekings and getting less that .375" extreme spread at 100M after epoxy bedding with ultra fine iron filings mixed in with the resin. That is less than 0.10" extreme spread at bullet center lines. Hitting 4" NPT pipe caps at 800yds was nothing!!! 11 out of 11 one shot kills on dear and antelope ranging from 275 to 600+ yards using a 6.5-20x44 Leupold Duplex reticle scope!! I collect and shoot old and very rare military target rifles!! The calibers are 22 rim 25" BBL (>1000% investment growth), 2- 6.5x55 w/29.5" BBL (one has a Palma grade NORMA BBL), 30-06(great investment), and several custom made rifles, one of which is a PO Ackley owned and noted in one of his books!!!

The secret to my success is using the Bonanza Coax Press, Bonanza FL dies set at 0.0005" bump, and seating with Bonanza Mic seater die making sure each round was 'kissing' the lands!

As an engineer, inside neck smoothness is more important than tension and neck concentrics!!! The FL sizing allowed the bullet to center in the rifling,
even with 0.001" difference in neck wall thickness variations since the shoulder base was squeezed in 0.003".

Since my retirement in late June of this year, I purchased a Browning X-Bolt Speed LR in 280AI for my son to use in Wyoming (<.5MOA extreme spread without reaming) and a Browning X-Bolt Max LR in 6.5PRC with a 3 groove 1:7 26" BBL. The testing at 100M was terrible!! Moved to 200M and 'Bingo" groups with 0.375" MOA C-C (centerline to centerline) extreme spread without the reaming!!! The bullets have not stabilized @ 100M with this extremely rapid twist!!! Can't wait to test the reamed cases and see the STD drop drop 14 to less than 7!!!! And get this, the rifle still has not past the velocity increase stage!!! And, I have not tested JUMP!! Hitting 3100+ with 145 Match Burners sorted by weight/BTOL, with the Boat tails filed to eliminate protrusion and dings and reduced the chamfer at the base!!!!!

I have read 3 of Bryan Litz Books!!! Knowing the Physics and mathematics involved, it took ~ 6hours per book!! Learned a lot about the science of Ballistics but also see a sales promotion for his former company!!! Yeh, Berger bullets are better than Sierra???? And yeh, Hornady manual preaching 'Bullet Jump'!!! Why are Berger and Hornaday stressing JUMP??? Because both companies make tangent ogive bullets that can't be seated close too, or in the rifling without falling out of the case!!!! Sierra on the other hand, forms secant ogive bullets that can be touching the rifling and still be seated in the neck!!! Which company has broken more records in the world???

This is my first ever reply on this forum, and let me say that I see a lot of fish bitting at sales gimmicks!! For an example, lots of reloaders spend BIG $ for cartridge gauges when a simple mirror laying slightly tilted on the bench, will amplify any irregularities when a cartridge rolls down it!!! Stick to the old Bench rest style of reloading and think ULTRA UNIFORMITY when reloading and you will have great success!!!
 
Last edited:
michaeljp65 said:
im pretty sure it was not that long ago these motors were $450ish
Click to expand...
I have had mine for several years. I don't remember what I paid for it. I bought it from Benchrite, which I think is now part of PMA.

I'd buy another one if I needed it.
 
Wild Bill IV said:
Alex, I have one big question as a precision reloader and shooter of 45 years, a machinist class A (using air gauge gauges),Toolmaker class B (including cutting tungsten-carbide headed gun reamers that air gauged product at 5 millionth on an inch), and a retired Engineer with 105 credit hours of pure science, "Why are you messing around with the outside of the neck when the inside is more critical, especially since this is where the bullet sets in the cartridge and has other forces acting on it more than just the tensional forces when pressures starts spiking????"

I have been reaming necks with great success!!! Had a 7mm-08 in a Remington 700 'ⁿHeavy Varmint Special' designed for Silhouette shooting!!! 24" BBL, 1:9.25" twist, using Nickel Plated Federal Match 308 necked down and reamed, shooting Sierra 160gr SBT Gamekings and getting less that .375" extreme spread at 100M after epoxy bedding with ultra fine iron filings mixed in with the resin. That is less than 0.10" extreme spread at bullet center lines. Hitting 4" NPT pipe caps at 800yds was nothing!!! 11 out of 11 one shot kills on dear and antelope ranging from 275 to 600+ yards using a 6.5-20x44 Leupold Duplex reticle scope!! I collect and shoot old and very rare military target rifles!! The calibers are 22 rim 25" BBL (>1000% investment growth), 2- 6.5x55 w/29.5" BBL (one has a Palma grade NORMA BBL), 30-06(great investment), and several custom made rifles, one of which is a PO Ackley owned and noted in one of his books!!!

The secret to my success is using the Bonanza Coax Press, Bonanza FL dies set at 0.0005" bump, and seating with Bonanza Mic seater die making sure each round was 'kissing' the lands!

As an engineer, inside neck smoothness is more important than tension and neck concentrics!!! The FL sizing allowed the bullet to center in the rifling,
even with 0.001" difference in neck wall thickness variations since the shoulder base was squeezed in 0.003".

Since my retirement in late June of this year, I purchased a Browning X-Bolt Speed LR in 280AI for my son to use in Wyoming (<.5MOA extreme spread without reaming) and a Browning X-Bolt Max LR in 6.5PRC with a 3 groove 1:7 26" BBL. The testing at 100M was terrible!! Moved to 200M and 'Bingo" groups with 0.375" MOA C-C (centerline to centerline) extreme spread without the reaming!!! The bullets have not stabilized @ 100M with this extremely rapid twist!!! Can't wait to test the reamed cases and see the STD drop drop 14 to less than 7!!!! And get this, the rifle still has not past the velocity increase stage!!! And, I have not tested JUMP!! Hitting 3100+ with 145 Match Burners sorted by weight/BTOL, with the Boat tails filed to eliminate protrusion and dings and reduced the chamfer at the base!!!!!

I have read 3 of Bryan Litz Books!!! Knowing the Physics and mathematics involved, it took ~ 6hours per book!! Learned a lot about the science of Ballistics but also see a sales promotion for his former company!!! Yeh, Berger bullets are better than Sierra???? And yeh, Hornady manual preaching 'Bullet Jump'!!! Why are Berger and Hornaday stressing JUMP??? Because both companies make tangent ogive bullets that can't be seated close too, or in the rifling without falling out of the case!!!! Sierra on the other hand, forms secant ogive bullets that can be touching the rifling and still be seated in the neck!!! Which company has broken more records in the world???

This is my first ever reply on this forum, and let me say that I see a lot of fish bitting at sales gimmicks!! For an example, lots of reloaders spend BIG $ for cartridge gauges when a simple mirror laying slightly tilted on the bench, will amplify any irregularities when a cartridge rolls down it!!! Stick to the old Bench rest style of reloading and think ULTRA UNIFORMITY when reloading and you will have great success!!!
Click to expand...
To answer your question, the reason Im not concerned with the id of the neck is because its actually quite good because of the extruding process and a straight reamer would only make it worse in my opinion. Not to mention, my testing has led me to believe that the actual grip on the bullet (interference fit, brass hardness, and thickness) is more important than seating force (friction between the bullet and neck). I think part of the reason for that is that the neck opens to release the bullet some amount, the bullet does not slide out of the neck when fired. Also, part of my process is to leave the carbon layer inside the neck so the bullet is really interacting with that carbon, not the case neck. However if through testing on target, you have found the neck id to be that critical then you have to go with what the target is telling you about your individual process. The science or math of it is kind of irrelevant, the target is all we care about.
 
Wild Bill IV said:
Alex, I have one big question as a precision reloader and shooter of 45 years, a machinist class A (using air gauge gauges),Toolmaker class B (including cutting tungsten-carbide headed gun reamers that air gauged product at 5 millionth on an inch), and a retired Engineer with 105 credit hours of pure science, "Why are you messing around with the outside of the neck when the inside is more critical, especially since this is where the bullet sets in the cartridge and has other forces acting on it more than just the tensional forces when pressures starts spiking????"

I have been reaming necks with great success!!! Had a 7mm-08 in a Remington 700 'ⁿHeavy Varmint Special' designed for Silhouette shooting!!! 24" BBL, 1:9.25" twist, using Nickel Plated Federal Match 308 necked down and reamed, shooting Sierra 160gr SBT Gamekings and getting less that .375" extreme spread at 100M after epoxy bedding with ultra fine iron filings mixed in with the resin. That is less than 0.10" extreme spread at bullet center lines. Hitting 4" NPT pipe caps at 800yds was nothing!!! 11 out of 11 one shot kills on dear and antelope ranging from 275 to 600+ yards using a 6.5-20x44 Leupold Duplex reticle scope!! I collect and shoot old and very rare military target rifles!! The calibers are 22 rim 25" BBL (>1000% investment growth), 2- 6.5x55 w/29.5" BBL (one has a Palma grade NORMA BBL), 30-06(great investment), and several custom made rifles, one of which is a PO Ackley owned and noted in one of his books!!!

The secret to my success is using the Bonanza Coax Press, Bonanza FL dies set at 0.0005" bump, and seating with Bonanza Mic seater die making sure each round was 'kissing' the lands!

As an engineer, inside neck smoothness is more important than tension and neck concentrics!!! The FL sizing allowed the bullet to center in the rifling,
even with 0.001" difference in neck wall thickness variations since the shoulder base was squeezed in 0.003".

Since my retirement in late June of this year, I purchased a Browning X-Bolt Speed LR in 280AI for my son to use in Wyoming (<.5MOA extreme spread without reaming) and a Browning X-Bolt Max LR in 6.5PRC with a 3 groove 1:7 26" BBL. The testing at 100M was terrible!! Moved to 200M and 'Bingo" groups with 0.375" MOA C-C (centerline to centerline) extreme spread without the reaming!!! The bullets have not stabilized @ 100M with this extremely rapid twist!!! Can't wait to test the reamed cases and see the STD drop drop 14 to less than 7!!!! And get this, the rifle still has not past the velocity increase stage!!! And, I have not tested JUMP!! Hitting 3100+ with 145 Match Burners sorted by weight/BTOL, with the Boat tails filed to eliminate protrusion and dings and reduced the chamfer at the base!!!!!

I have read 3 of Bryan Litz Books!!! Knowing the Physics and mathematics involved, it took ~ 6hours per book!! Learned a lot about the science of Ballistics but also see a sales promotion for his former company!!! Yeh, Berger bullets are better than Sierra???? And yeh, Hornady manual preaching 'Bullet Jump'!!! Why are Berger and Hornaday stressing JUMP??? Because both companies make tangent ogive bullets that can't be seated close too, or in the rifling without falling out of the case!!!! Sierra on the other hand, forms secant ogive bullets that can be touching the rifling and still be seated in the neck!!! Which company has broken more records in the world???

This is my first ever reply on this forum, and let me say that I see a lot of fish bitting at sales gimmicks!! For an example, lots of reloaders spend BIG $ for cartridge gauges when a simple mirror laying slightly tilted on the bench, will amplify any irregularities when a cartridge rolls down it!!! Stick to the old Bench rest style of reloading and think ULTRA UNIFORMITY when reloading and you will have great success!!!
Click to expand...
With all respect, it is very difficult to respond to a post like this. Everything from inside neck reaming to the statement that a 1-7 twist will not stabilize a 6.5 caliber until it passes 100 yards.

I certainly can’t be the only contributor to this Web Site that is shaking his head after reading this.
 
GetReal said:
Thanx! Helpful.

What's kept me from neck turning is at least threefold: (1) Time needed to do it (2) cost of tooling up (3) I already get 0.35 - 0.45" groups at 100 yd - and that's good enuf for me. I don't compete benchrest - more a PRS / F-class type of mixmaster comps. It remains to be seen if my 5-15th firing of a individual cases will be as accurate as my 1st to 5th.

So I'm wondering... what kind of addtl accuracy does neck turning get ya? From say 0.50" grp sat 100y to....what?

Thanx
Click to expand...
how about 2 inch groups at 1000 yds.
 
Great post, many thanks. My finger was getting tired pulling on a drill trigger (not yet using a lathe), and hard to keep rpm constant, so got this $100 gyro screwdriver, you just twist your wrist to adjust rpm, no concentration required. I turn slower at maybe 120-180rpm and it’s perfect for that, no need to cool anything and getting about +/- 0.0001. After 2 passes I measure neck wall at one spot on a micrometer, and I’ll make one more slow pass if it’s a little thick. I don’t work for DEWALT…
 

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Alex Wheeler said:
To answer your question, the reason Im not concerned with the id of the neck is because its actually quite good because of the extruding process and a straight reamer would only make it worse in my opinion. Not to mention, my testing has led me to believe that the actual grip on the bullet (interference fit, brass hardness, and thickness) is more important than seating force (friction between the bullet and neck). I think part of the reason for that is that the neck opens to release the bullet some amount, the bullet does not slide out of the neck when fired. Also, part of my process is to leave the carbon layer inside the neck so the bullet is really interacting with that carbon, not the case neck. However if through testing on target, you have found the neck id to be that critical then you have to go with what the target is telling you about your individual process. The science or math of it is kind of irrelevant, the target is all we care about.
Click to expand...
Lets look at you assumptions and try a little experiment I did decades ago! My first set of dies and accompany tools was a Lee Loader bench rest TRUE HANDLOADER in 223 Rem and could be used at the Bench which I still have most of the kit! PIX ATTACHED!!

Before we start this experiment, A little engineering physics lesson on friction that applies to the internal ballistic!!! There are 2 types of friction, STATIC & KINETIC. Static friction is due to the fit of the bullet in the neck. This is the neck tension. Static means it is set or not in motion in relation to a point on the case, ie the base, the shoulder, neck/shoulder junction, etc. Pick a point and use that for you reference. The kinetic friction is the bullet sliding down and out of the neck and that friction is determined by the surfaces of the bullet bearing surface and the inside of the neck with neck tension having no affect. STATIC FRICTION IS ALWAYS GREATER THAN KINETIC FRICTION!!! That being said, the force used to overcome the static friction is pressure from the early stages of the powder burn after the primer flash!! The prime flash pressure itself can be enough to over power the static force and can force the bullet into the rifling!! If this is true, then the bullet is in the rifling and accelerating well before the brass starts rolling forward from the pressure spike or peak!! Lets examine this theory with
BILL'S REAMING AND FRICTION TEST USING ONLY PRIMERS!!!!!

My first test was with new brass and only bullets!!! NO POWDER IN THIS TEST!!!! Used CCI BR4 primers because their flashpoint is slight hotter and much more uniform. Other tools need were:
1) 6 oz double nylon inserted mallet to knock the case in and out of the BR FL DIE, and for seating the Bullet.
2)caliper to measure the cases before and after seating, and after firing!!
3) ram attachment on a cleaning rod for measuring bullet travel distance in the rifle BBL.
4) tape measure for finding the distance of bullet travel.
5) rest of cleaning kit to remove all the corrosive from the chamber and barrel after finishing the test.
6) xXxX steel wool to polish the inside of the neck.
7) REM oil and Q-tips

PROCEDURE for all test Cases
Measure OD of neck and record sized case, seated a primer, seated a bullet to SAAMI COAL spec, measure the neck OD w/seated bullet and record.
Loaded the round and fired!!!
Slowly run the ram down from the muzzle end and measured the distance from the muzzle to the rod handle. Recorded that meaurement.

Case 1. As is new
Case 2. Polish inside of neck with steel wool/brush
Case 3. Very light coat of oil inside of neck
Case 4. Polished and oiled
Case 5. Reamed
Case 6. Reamed and polished
Case 7. Reamed and oiled
Case 8. Reamed, polished and oiled

The results of the tests showed the reamed, and reamed/oiled neck case had to have their bullets tapped out of the lands with the mallet and their neck OD was slight larger than unseated neck OD before firing. Most of the other bullets needed just a tap with the rod!!
Conclusion: The polished surface is rougher than the reamed surface. And as a former machinists, A reamed surface is much finer than a turned surface!!!!! Infact, the surface is glassy with spiralling minute scratches. 6 fluted reamers will not create chattering or tool bounce since the cutters are opposing at 60°, 120°, and 180° and a little cutting oil will eliminate galling!!

Back up your assumptions and try this test with your cases!!! As a leader of this forum, be truthful and open minded with this test!!! That is the scientific method. You and your followers are expecting to excel in the reloading methods, procedures, and new processes! There is nothing for being wrong and everything to gain for being truthful!!! Especially for your followers!!! I'm willing to be wrong, but I base my theories on my knowledge of science! I believe this test will be the being of a new, long, and useful tool for a new formum!!
 

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Wild Bill IV said:
Lets look at you assumptions and try a little experiment I did decades ago! My first set of dies and accompany tools was a Lee Loader bench rest TRUE HANDLOADER in 223 Rem and could be used at the Bench which I still have most of the kit! PIX ATTACHED!!

Before we start this experiment, A little engineering physics lesson on friction that applies to the internal ballistic!!! There are 2 types of friction, STATIC & KINETIC. Static friction is due to the fit of the bullet in the neck. This is the neck tension. Static means it is set or not in motion in relation to a point on the case, ie the base, the shoulder, neck/shoulder junction, etc. Pick a point and use that for you reference. The kinetic friction is the bullet sliding down and out of the neck and that friction is determined by the surfaces of the bullet bearing surface and the inside of the neck with neck tension having no affect. STATIC FRICTION IS ALWAYS GREATER THAN KINETIC FRICTION!!! That being said, the force used to overcome the static friction is pressure from the early stages of the powder burn after the primer flash!! The prime flash pressure itself can be enough to over power the static force and can force the bullet into the rifling!! If this is true, then the bullet is in the rifling and accelerating well before the brass starts rolling forward from the pressure spike or peak!! Lets examine this theory with
BILL'S REAMING AND FRICTION TEST USING ONLY PRIMERS!!!!!

My first test was with new brass and only bullets!!! NO POWDER IN THIS TEST!!!! Used CCI BR4 primers because their flashpoint is slight hotter and much more uniform. Other tools need were:
1) 6 oz double nylon inserted mallet to knock the case in and out of the BR FL DIE, and for seating the Bullet.
2)caliper to measure the cases before and after seating, and after firing!!
3) ram attachment on a cleaning rod for measuring bullet travel distance in the rifle BBL.
4) tape measure for finding the distance of bullet travel.
5) rest of cleaning kit to remove all the corrosive from the chamber and barrel after finishing the test.
6) xXxX steel wool to polish the inside of the neck.
7) REM oil and Q-tips

PROCEDURE for all test Cases
Measure OD of neck and record sized case, seated a primer, seated a bullet to SAAMI COAL spec, measure the neck OD w/seated bullet and record.
Loaded the round and fired!!!
Slowly run the ram down from the muzzle end and measured the distance from the muzzle to the rod handle. Recorded that meaurement.

Case 1. As is new
Case 2. Polish inside of neck with steel wool/brush
Case 3. Very light coat of oil inside of neck
Case 4. Polished and oiled
Case 5. Reamed
Case 6. Reamed and polished
Case 7. Reamed and oiled
Case 8. Reamed, polished and oiled

The results of the tests showed the reamed, and reamed/oiled neck case had to have their bullets tapped out of the lands with the mallet and their neck OD was slight larger than unseated neck OD before firing. Most of the other bullets needed just a tap with the rod!!
Conclusion: The polished surface is rougher than the reamed surface. And as a former machinists, A reamed surface is much finer than a turned surface!!!!! Infact, the surface is glassy with spiralling minute scratches. 6 fluted reamers will not create chattering or tool bounce since the cutters are opposing at 60°, 120°, and 180° and a little cutting oil will eliminate galling!!

Back up your assumptions and try this test with your cases!!! As a leader of this forum, be truthful and open minded with this test!!! That is the scientific method. You and your followers are expecting to excel in the reloading methods, procedures, and new processes! There is nothing for being wrong and everything to gain for being truthful!!! Especially for your followers!!! I'm willing to be wrong, but I base my theories on my knowledge of science! I believe this test will be the being of a new, long, and useful tool for a new formum!!
Click to expand...
What matches are you planning to shoot in 2024?
 
jackieschmidt said:
With all respect, it is very difficult to respond to a post like this. Everything from inside neck reaming to the statement that a 1-7 twist will not stabilize a 6.5 caliber until it passes 100 yards.

I certainly can’t be the only contributor to this Web Site that is shaking his head after reading this.
quest450 said:
Hey Wild Bill IV I have a personal question for you sir......if you're married does your spouse think you're as annoying as I do ?
Click to expand...
Yeah!!!!!
Click to expand...
 
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