22 Cal Decisions

[FireKracker50]

I apologize up front this is going to be a bit of a rambling session. Just getting my thoughts out in writing to work through them. Looking forward to others input.

I currently have a Rem 700 VSSF II in 22-250 1:14 twist that was a pet project when i worked at the remington r&d facility in kentucky. I also have an AR-15 224 Valk 1:6.5 twist.

I do a lot of reloading and tinkering. Shoot for fun not competition. Also enjoy coyote hunting. I do a lot of predator/pest control on my land. Maybe some day I'll shoot a competition here or there but not really on my radar for now.

I'm having good success with 80.5gr berger fullbores in the valk over 26.6-26.8gr CFE223 FGMM-AR primers. 100yrd 5shot groups avg 0.44"-0.58" depending on day. 200yrd groups avg 1"-1.25". 400yrds shots all stay pretty centered on 4inch steel, never measure groups. Hope to test at 600 and 800 this winter. I haven't been able to find a 1000yard range locally. But I have places I can target shoot and coyote hunt from 0-800 yards. It doesn't do great with 88 eld or 90 smk. But I think the 80gr range is its sweet spot for vel/bc ratio anyways.

My 22-250 holds just under 1MOA out to 400yrds with 40grainers. I do allot of shooting with it at 250yrds and it averages about 2.25" groups.
Maybe i could get it better but been shooting the same loads for years and haven't revisited any load development with it. Plan to in near future. Especially with 50gr vmax as I have a few hundred of them laying around.

Seeing the new 22 ARC, 62grain ELD-VT, and 80 ELD-X bullets have given me the bug again to maybe do some changing up.

I want to always have a slow twist 22-250 for slinging light and fast. Just something I enjoy shooting 0-400 with.
And I want to always have an autoloader for fun and coyote hunting with my thermal and digital night vision.
But I have never built a custom gun or wildcat so I think it's something I would like to try.

I'm debating on getting a 22arc upper to do some head to head comparisons against valkyrie with 80.5 berger, 62 eld-vt, and 80 eld-x . Or maybe even a 22GT upper instead of 22 arc. Anyone have any 22 GT experience in AR-15?
Or potentially as drastic as getting an ar-10 in 22-250 AI or 22 Creed instead of another ar-15 upper. But that decision is somewhat dependant on my bolt gun choice.

My bolt gun options are keep my 700 VSSF II 22-250 1:14 And built a custom 22 (22-250 AI fast twist long throat, 22 creed, 22GT...). Goal is 80-95 grainers 0-1000. But mainly in that 400-1000yrd range.

Or buy my father's Rem XR-100 22-250 1:14 twist and rebarrel my VSSF2 with a fast twist long throat 22-250AI, 22 creed, 22gt, etc...
What are yalls thoughts on which I should do?

As for which caliber for the new gun/barrel I'm leaning heavily toward a fast twist long throat 22-250AI as I already have brass and reload 22-250. I would even consider Ackley Improving the slow twist gun and use it to fireform while fun shooting.

I could do 22-250 14 twist for 0-400 target/coyotes.
22ARC/Valk/GT close quarters thermal and long range night vision coyotes and target at any range.
Then 22-250AI fast twist for long range target and long distance coyotes.

Or for simplicity sake 22-250AI across the board on all three. Fast twist long throat bolt gun for 80-95gr. Slow twist bolt for 40-50gr. And AR-10 62-80gr for night hunting and fun shooting. Or maybe even settle on the same load in the 80ish grain bullets for the ar-10 and fast twist bolt gun. Downside is having to switch to AR10. I have several ar15 but no ar10s.

 

[357Mag]

I apologize up front this is going to be a bit of a rambling session. Just getting my thoughts out in writing to work through them. Looking forward to others input.

I currently have a Rem 700 VSSF II in 22-250 1:14 twist that was a pet project when i worked at the remington r&d facility in kentucky. I also have an AR-15 224 Valk 1:6.5 twist.

I do a lot of reloading and tinkering. Shoot for fun not competition. Also enjoy coyote hunting. I do a lot of predator/pest control on my land. Maybe some day I'll shoot a competition here or there but not really on my radar for now.

I'm having good success with 80.5gr berger fullbores in the valk over 26.6-26.8gr CFE223 FGMM-AR primers. 100yrd 5shot groups avg 0.44"-0.58" depending on day. 200yrd groups avg 1"-1.25". 400yrds shots all stay pretty centered on 4inch steel, never measure groups. Hope to test at 600 and 800 this winter. I haven't been able to find a 1000yard range locally. But I have places I can target shoot and coyote hunt from 0-800 yards. It doesn't do great with 88 eld or 90 smk. But I think the 80gr range is its sweet spot for vel/bc ratio anyways.

My 22-250 holds just under 1MOA out to 400yrds with 40grainers. I do allot of shooting with it at 250yrds and it averages about 2.25" groups.
Maybe i could get it better but been shooting the same loads for years and haven't revisited any load development with it. Plan to in near future. Especially with 50gr vmax as I have a few hundred of them laying around.

Seeing the new 22 ARC, 62grain ELD-VT, and 80 ELD-X bullets have given me the bug again to maybe do some changing up.

I want to always have a slow twist 22-250 for slinging light and fast. Just something I enjoy shooting 0-400 with.
And I want to always have an autoloader for fun and coyote hunting with my thermal and digital night vision.
But I have never built a custom gun or wildcat so I think it's something I would like to try.

I'm debating on getting a 22arc upper to do some head to head comparisons against valkyrie with 80.5 berger, 62 eld-vt, and 80 eld-x . Or maybe even a 22GT upper instead of 22 arc. Anyone have any 22 GT experience in AR-15?
Or potentially as drastic as getting an ar-10 in 22-250 AI or 22 Creed instead of another ar-15 upper. But that decision is somewhat dependant on my bolt gun choice.

My bolt gun options are keep my 700 VSSF II 22-250 1:14 And built a custom 22 (22-250 AI fast twist long throat, 22 creed, 22GT...). Goal is 80-95 grainers 0-1000. But mainly in that 400-1000yrd range.

Or buy my father's Rem XR-100 22-250 1:14 twist and rebarrel my VSSF2 with a fast twist long throat 22-250AI, 22 creed, 22gt, etc...
What are yalls thoughts on which I should do?

As for which caliber for the new gun/barrel I'm leaning heavily toward a fast twist long throat 22-250AI as I already have brass and reload 22-250. I would even consider Ackley Improving the slow twist gun and use it to fireform while fun shooting.

I could do 22-250 14 twist for 0-400 target/coyotes.
22ARC/Valk/GT close quarters thermal and long range night vision coyotes and target at any range.
Then 22-250AI fast twist for long range target and long distance coyotes.

Or for simplicity sake 22-250AI across the board on all three. Fast twist long throat bolt gun for 80-95gr. Slow twist bolt for 40-50gr. And AR-10 62-80gr for night hunting and fun shooting. Or maybe even settle on the same load in the 80ish grain bullets for the ar-10 and fast twist bolt gun. Downside is having to switch to AR10. I have several ar15 but no ar10s.

Firecracker -

Howdy !

If you are all set up & used to the AR-15 format, you would probably need to convince yourself about the merits of going w/ an AR-10. I think you'd have to talk yourself into it,
and input from the forum is only one part of that.

I put in a vote against the XP, and tell you why....
When I stepped off on my first full custom ( varmint ) rifle, the first component I bought was an XP-100, to use as the donor action. I was going to have the action sleeved, and use it in a hyper-accurate varmint rifle, for use on groundhog.

World class benchrest rifle smith Fred Sinclair lived 6mi away, and was going to do the work. Fred suggested I go w/ a benchrest action ( Wichita WBR 1375 ) instead.
Besides eliminating the need for action truing, bolt sleeving, bolt face machining to .308 and such; Fred offered that I would have more rifle stocks to choose from, going w/ the 1.375" diam Wichita.... than I would if I went w/ an even larger diam Davidson-sleeved XP.
Now 45+ year later, I still shoot the Wichita action; now on it's 4th wildcat-chambered barrel. As Fred often was heard to say... " Buy the best, and cry once ".

As regards the barrel and chambering :
The chambering for first custom varmint rifle was my " .22-35 Remington " wildcat.
Case capacity was between the.22-250 and a .22-250AI. Sinclair recommended I use Hornady's 50SX, but early on in there use; I had a " crawler " despite a well-placed hit.
I switched to using the 55SX, and never had any crawlers afterward. That experience steered me away any potential use on.224" cal bullets lighter than 55gr. In my custom rifle that had a Hart SS 24" 1-14, Fred had the chamber & leade' set up to accept bullets of up to 55-60 gr. As it turned out, the 55SX bullet grouped better than the custom 52gr bullets
I tried for short range benchrest style shoots. My point: make an informed bullet decision, and have the gun configured to best accommodate it.

In did later shoot another " .22-35 Remington " barrel.... a 28" SS 1-8 K & P. I shot Hornady 75 "A"-Max in it exclusively; and felt I had a valid 1,000yd capable varmint rifle.

I DK if I have helped any ?


With regards,
357Mag

.

.

A .22-250AI in a 24" barrel would make a no-kiddin 500yd groundhog gun ( example ), when shooting a great 55gr varmint bullet. I'm not sure that your local KY wind velocities are any much more than what is encountered in the open flat expanses of NE Indiana ?

.

 

[JSH]

I won’t argue a bit on the XP comment as far as stock selections go. However he mentions the XR model. Dunno if that is still the XP spacing or not, even if it is a model 7, still limits stock selections.
I have tried to save a few bucks on budget builds and I would have been better off to go custom, cry once. I have several now and no regrets Defiance, Shilen,ARC and Zermatt.

I have an itch for a 22 build myself, I looked no farther than 22CM.

 

[Gary in MD]

Probably no right or wrong answer.
I like the standard 22-250, I've got (2) with an 8 twist and (1) with the 14 twist. No fire forming and plenty of velocity. The 8 twist can be "best of both worlds", I was really surprised that it will still shoot the 55 grain varmint bullets pretty darn good and with the rpms generated by the fast twist, they really "come apart" when they hit.

 

[FireKracker50]

Thank you so much for all the great input.
Yes, you probably get a lot more wind up there than I see here. And probably a lot more groundhogs. I see 2 or 3 groundhogs a year. Wish I had them to hunt lol

If I get the XP-100 it will be to keep it stock factory rifle, if anything the only change would be to AI the chamber so incan fireform while plinking with it. More nostalgia than anything. But I just want a slow twist 22-250 to keep for 0-400 plinking light and fast bullets.
But after investing the money in it I'll probably just rebarrel my VSSF2 instead of doing a custom build.
So that would put me with a true up 700 action, Bell & Carlson stock, and whatever barrel/chamber I decided on.

If I don't get the XP-100 then my VSSF2 will probably keep its stock 1:14 barrel, I may leave it chambered same or possibly ackley improve it. I wish it was a 12 twist to shoot the 53 Vmax. Because a friend has a 14 twist and it won't stabilize them. The 50gr and 55gr it will. But the 53 is a lot longer. But if I keep VSSF2 and don't get XP-100 then I'd be doing a bottom up new build.

If I do a custom build it will be more varminter style, or potentially something more PRS style. But not full benchrest or f-class. I don't want anything that heavy or bulky as I will do some coyote hunting with it and maybe occationally a doe for meat (typically deer hunt with 7mm though, have a few 280 rem and a 7wsm).

 

[Rope2horns]

The 22CM is plug and play and basically a wash with the 22-250Ai. Just a thought.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Have the vssf barreled with matching contour/flute(I just love the way they look), but with a 1:12 Lilja tube. 22-250 or 22-250 AI, you will not believe how accurate it will be with the vmax 50-53 and H4895. Or Nosler 40-55 gr and Varget. Keep the freebore short.

 

[FireKracker50]

I wish mine was already a 1:12 or the xr-100 was 1:12. So I could just shoot 53 vmax. But since neither are ill either keep with the 40s or 50s in one of them.

But i really want a fast twist 22 cal to shoot 80-95grain. That's the main gun I'm looking to build. But I'd like it to have commonality with my slow twist so I can run same dies, buy bulk brass, etc.

I guess my first decision needs to be keep 22-250 factory and build fast twist 22-250.
Rechamber slow twist to 22-250AI and build fast twist 22-250AI.
Or rechamber slow twist to 22 creed and build a fast twist 22 creed.

Then I can decide which guns I do that with.

 

[Gabe22BR]

Sounds like you want a 1-8” 22-250AI

Then go from there..

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

I'm hoping that, Tikka makes, a 1-8, .22 Creed., soon or,..
I'll settle for, the old .22-250 rem, in a 1- 8 twist TIKKA and have it reamed to, Ackley 40* shoulder as, I HATE Trimming !
Reportedly, a 1-8 twist, .22-250 will shoot, 53 V-Maxes and 55 NBT's on the low end, up to 75's or, so

 

[WyleWD]

Have the vssf barreled with matching contour/flute(I just love the way they look), but with a 1:12 Lilja tube. 22-250 or 22-250 AI, you will not believe how accurate it will be with the vmax 50-53 and H4895. Or Nosler 40-55 gr and Varget. Keep the freebore short.

Not to hijack the thread....... but How short for freebore for 50-53 Vmax's? Thanks. WD

 

[FireKracker50]

Not to hijack the thread....... but How short for freebore for 50-53 Vmax's? Thanks. WD

Not a hijack at all. Glad you asked. I was thinking it.

 

[FireKracker50]

I'm hoping that, Tikka makes, a 1-8, .22 Creed., soon or,..
I'll settle for, the old .22-250 rem, in a 1- 8 twist and have it reamed to, Ackley 40* shoulder as,.. I HATE Trimming !
Reportedly, a 1-8 twist, .22-250 will shoot, 53 V-Maxes and 55 NBT's on the low end, up to 75's or, so

Yes less trimming is a big plus to the AI.

However I recently got the 3in1 head for my forester trimmer and I gotta say it's pretty nifty. Trim, chamfer, debur all in one step. I don't have a case prep center so it's really easier to just run them through the trimmer every time now.

 

[FireKracker50]

Sounds like you want a 1-8” 22-250AI

Then go from there..

I'm wondering if 1:8 going to be enough to stabilize the 95 SMK. I don't know if that's what I'll settle in on but I don't want to be limited on the high side. I'm wondering if I need a 1:7.7 or 7.5.

On the valk I run 6.5. I think the arc is only 7. I know the 250 is going to be allot more velocity though.

 

[alf]

Buy your dad's XR, and rebarrel your VSSF. Save the VSSF barrel to screw on the XR when you shoot out that barrel.

I wouldn't do a 22-250 AI, when the 22 CM is basically the same w/o having to fireform. Factory brass is available, and/or just a simple neck down from 6 CM brass. New dies will be required regardless.

I'd not worry about the 95's, I'd step up to a 6mm 105 class as to build around a 95.

Don't discount the 22x47 Lapua. My reamer was built around the 80 Berger VLD, and would run those at 3370 in a 23" barrel, and a better fit in a 2.800" mag box with properly throated bullets.

I actually had the 22x47 reamer reground to zero freebore, and chambered a 12" twist barrel for night time coyotes using 52 Bergers at 3800.

Best way to do it is pick a bullet(s) you want to shoot, at the velocity you want to run, and pick a case that will do it at sane pressures in the barrel length of choice.

 

[COLT45SA]

Never owned an AR-15 and found them awfully heavy to carry around all day. Today I was shown an AR that weighed just a couple of ounces over 6 lbs so I'm considering having the guy build be one. It will be for varmint hunting from prairie dogs to coyotes and hogs, and more than likely won't be shooting over 200 yards. I need to decide on barrel twist rate and whether I should stick with the .223 or go with the .300 Blackout or .350 Legend.
Your thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

 

[FireKracker50]

I know neither of these are clambering you mentioned but I've had great success with 224 Valkyrie shooting 80.5grain berger fullbores using cfe223 powder. I'm currently testing with the new hornady 62 ELD-VT. The BC of that bullet surpasses anything else in its class. But it's too long to load in 223 rem at mag length for an AR. It will work well in 224 valk or the new 22 ARC. I'm about to have a 22 ARC barrel made and start testing with it.
I think 22 ARC with 62 ELD-VT would be fa tastic for you. Or the tried and true 223 rem. At 200yrds and in BC doesn't really matter. So you could go light and fast shooting 35-40grainers in 223 rem and still be relatively flat shooting. 300 blk or 350 legend has way too much drop in my opinion. I have several ARs in 223 remington with different twists. Some I shoot 40grainers and some I shoot up to 60 grain nosler bt. But my valkyrie is my favorite.


In other news I tested 8 different 22-250 handloads today as well as hornady 50gr superformance. The superformance was spectacular all holes touching and avg vel of 3981fps @15deg temperature.
I had great luck with 2 different handloads today. 44grain hammer hunter over 39gr cfe223 @ 4184fps. And 35gr hammer hunters over 41gr varget @ 4445fps. Both just shy of 1/2" groups.
Also sub 1/2" groups with 55 sierra hpbt and varget. But not great velocity. I may be able to go a little higher charge weight but at sierras max charge of 36.4gr of varget it was shooting 3723. No pressure signs but it was only 15deg. Need to try it again in warmer weather.

So I'm really hesitant to rebarrel my VSSF2 now. Lol
I think I need to get my dad XR100 and shoot it before making any decisions.