Electric Cars -- anyone own one?

[jackieschmidt]

I purchased a Toyota EV three months ago. It is made in partnership with Subaru, and both sell the same vehicle. So far I am very happy with it. It works well, rides well, and is cheap to fuel. So far I am only charging with 110V, but will install a 220V outlet soon. I only charge at home. I live in the PNW, and electricity is relatively cheap compared to other regions. Its like paying less than $1 per gallon for gas if I charge at home. The car is AWD, has two motors (and two batteries - one for each motor). The curb wt is about 4,500 lbs. it has a low center of gravity, due to the battery weight and location. Corners well. It has 8+ inches of true clearance. I hike a lot and expect to reach trailheads.

A full charge yields 260 miles. Winter may be different. But the car has equipment to heat and cool the battery. I charge to 90-100% at 110V. The range is enough for most purposes.

The car has 2-3 driving modes. If you want, it runs like a normal vehicle - no difference. Or you can slow down acceleration to conserve charge. The EVs have fast acceleration. And you can use the regeneration mode to recharge the battery when braking or slowing down. The recharging occurs when the front and back motors act as generators. It feels like you are downshifting when you let off on the accelerator pedal. If you like manual transmissions, you will like regen.

The initial environmental cost of the lithium battery exceeds the on-going environmental costs of gas for the first 5 years or 50K miles. After that, the EV comes out ahead. This assumes that the generation of the electricity has no substantial environmental cost. Again, I live in the PNW, so dams and hydro power. Plus and minus.

The real limit is charging infrastructure. I would not want to drive across Eastern Montana and North Dakota in the winter. But going from my small rural town to Seattle and back (160 miles) is no problem. I-5 corridor is charger rich. Not so much on SR20.

The Toyota does not qualify for the $7500 tax credit. However, if you lease the car, Toyota Leasing will pass on its $7500 credit to reduce the buyout price. I leased mine for 30 days, and then paid it off, to get the price reduction, at the dealer’s suggestion.

I am sure EVs are not for everybody. But I am very happy with mine. Each car from different makers is different, have competing strengths and weaknesses. It’s good to shop around and compare charging speed, battery capacity, driving comfort, factors. But I’m convinced there is no general rule that applies to every EV. They are all different from each other.

ETA: The Toyota BZ4X is kind of an ugly vehicle. it is a Rav4 in back and a 1908 Baker EV in front.

Just for you info, my Chevy Bolt EUV was fully charging to about 275 mile when it was really hot.
Now that things have cooled down, the full charge is just 250 miles.

I suspect when full winter gets here, it will be down to about 225.

I put my own 40 amp charger in, ran my own 220 outlet. Somewhere in this thread is a picture of my set up.

 

[SGK]

Kana Inagaki in Toyota, Japan
2 HOURS AGO

Toyota says it is close to being able to manufacture next-generation solid-state batteries at the same rate as existing batteries for electric vehicles, marking a milestone in the global race to commercialise the technology.

Its headway in manufacturing technology follows a “breakthrough” in battery materials recently claimed by the world’s largest carmaker by vehicles sold. It would allow Toyota to mass-produce solid-state batteries by 2027 or 2028.

Solid-state batteries have long been heralded by industry experts as a potential “game-changer” that could address EV battery concerns such as charging time, capacity and the risk of catching fire.

If successful, Toyota expects its electric cars powered by solid-state batteries to have a range of 1,200km — more than twice the range of its current EVs — and a charging time of 10 minutes or less.

But producing solid-state batteries in large volumes is costly and difficult, with Goldman Sachs warning of “a relatively tough path towards scaling up over the coming decade”.

Problems include the extreme sensitivity of the batteries to moisture and oxygen, as well as the mechanical pressure needed to hold them together to prevent the formation of dendrites — the metal filaments that can cause short circuits.

According to Toyota, one of the most critical and difficult technologies for mass production is the assembly process, in which the layers of cathode-anode cells need to be stacked quickly and with high precision, without damaging the materials.

When asked whether Toyota was now able to produce solid-state batteries at the same rate as current lithium-ion batteries, a Toyota engineer said: “In terms of the stacking speed, we are almost there. We are going to roll out bigger volumes and check the quality.”

[article continues in the Financial Times]

If they get this challenging development right it's a complete game changer. Progress progresses.

 

[SGK]

The real limit is charging infrastructure. I would not want to drive across Eastern Montana and North Dakota in the winter. But going from my small rural town to Seattle and back (160 miles) is no problem. I-5 corridor is charger rich. Not so much on SR20.

When CEV were developing you wouldn't want to do that drive either. There weren't many roads.

 

[rr2030]

Progress yes, but it is going to take time. many in the industry predict 2030 to 2035 for solid state EV batteries, which by the way are Lithium Ion. Toyota is among many other manufacturers working on solid state batteries.

 

[SGK]

Hence the importance of Toyota’s announcement earlier today.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Kana Inagaki in Toyota, Japan
2 HOURS AGO

Toyota says it is close to being able to manufacture next-generation solid-state batteries at the same rate as existing batteries for electric vehicles, marking a milestone in the global race to commercialise the technology.

Its headway in manufacturing technology follows a “breakthrough” in battery materials recently claimed by the world’s largest carmaker by vehicles sold. It would allow Toyota to mass-produce solid-state batteries by 2027 or 2028.

Solid-state batteries have long been heralded by industry experts as a potential “game-changer” that could address EV battery concerns such as charging time, capacity and the risk of catching fire.

If successful, Toyota expects its electric cars powered by solid-state batteries to have a range of 1,200km — more than twice the range of its current EVs — and a charging time of 10 minutes or less.

But producing solid-state batteries in large volumes is costly and difficult, with Goldman Sachs warning of “a relatively tough path towards scaling up over the coming decade”.

Problems include the extreme sensitivity of the batteries to moisture and oxygen, as well as the mechanical pressure needed to hold them together to prevent the formation of dendrites — the metal filaments that can cause short circuits.

According to Toyota, one of the most critical and difficult technologies for mass production is the assembly process, in which the layers of cathode-anode cells need to be stacked quickly and with high precision, without damaging the materials.

When asked whether Toyota was now able to produce solid-state batteries at the same rate as current lithium-ion batteries, a Toyota engineer said: “In terms of the stacking speed, we are almost there. We are going to roll out bigger volumes and check the quality.”

[article continues in the Financial Times]

If they get this challenging development right it's a complete game changer. Progress progresses.

I’m calling BS on that 10 minute charge time.

Do you have any idea what amp circuit you would have to have to transfer the amount of wattage it would take to charge a EV battery in that short of time.?

I can’t amagine what the plug would look like.

 

[SGK]

Current Tesla Supercharger tech is already circa 200 miles in 15 minutes with a much less effective battery. It’s not unreasonable to expect that to improve. We’re not talking home chargers.


Anyway, things keep moving forward. Now wait for Brians356 to wade in on his horse or bicycle waving his fist at “those damn motor vehicles.”

 

[SGK]

Hence the importance of Toyota’s announcement earlier today.

Last paragraph from the article:

"In addition to Toyota, other companies have made progress recently. Chinese battery maker CATL revealed it was preparing to mass-produce its semi-solid batteries before the year’s end, while South Korea’s Samsung SDI has completed a fully automated pilot line for solid-state batteries."

 

[jackieschmidt]

Current Tesla Supercharger tech is already circa 200 miles in 15 minutes with a much less effective battery. It’s not unreasonable to expect that to improve. We’re not talking home chargers.


Anyway, things keep moving forward. Now wait for Brians356 to wade in on his horse or bicycle waving his fist at “those damn motor vehicles.”

My home charger, which is a 40 amp Juice Box, takes 2 hrs to add 60 miles when I get home every day.

It is on a 220 50 amp circuit.

 

[Olde Man]

Jackie I know there are a ton of other considerations but lets do this for fun. 40Amp x 220V = 8800W x 2Hrs = 17.6 KWH x .10KWH = $1.76 / 60Mi = $ .029 per mile.

 

[RegionRat]

Jackie I know there are a ton of other considerations but lets do this for fun. 40Amp x 220V = 8800W x 2Hrs = 17.6 KWH x .10KWH = $1.76 / 60Mi = $ .029 per mile.

You may find this trend interesting.

In 2021, the US National average for residential consumers was roughly $0.112 per kWh


Thanks to all of this political maneuvering, the cost as of Feb 2023 is now... $0.23 per kWh or roughly a 100% increase compared to 2021.


The cost in CA is now over $0.31 per kWh and climbing.



Just food for thought.

 

[wedgy]

California leading the way as usual for a 37% rate increase of what are already the highest rates in the country;
"Young explained this to the City Council last month. As of now the proposed rate increases would be an average of about 14.8% in December - then 11.3% on July 1 of next year and another 11.3% on July 1, 2025"

Electric shock: Glendale residents stunned by expected increase in power rates

Glendale Water and Power plans rate increases of 14.8% later this year, then 11.3% and 11.3% over the next two years.

abc7.com

 

[NorCalMikie]

California leading the way as usual for a 37% rate increase of what are already the highest rates in the country;
"Young explained this to the City Council last month. As of now the proposed rate increases would be an average of about 14.8% in December - then 11.3% on July 1 of next year and another 11.3% on July 1, 2025"

Electric shock: Glendale residents stunned by expected increase in power rates

Glendale Water and Power plans rate increases of 14.8% later this year, then 11.3% and 11.3% over the next two years.

abc7.com

Not surprising and there isn't SQUAT you can do about it.
Remember PG&E and they're "rate increases"? You should have known AHEAD OF TIME the we the consumers/rate payers would be paying for the fire damage caused by non maintained equipment.

 

[ebb]

The GM CEO Mary Barra just announced that GM has suspended all EV manufacturing. They are not selling very well and the have over 62000 unsold vehicles. The much-touted Silverado EV is on the back burner and the release date has been pushed back another year. She said that GM was going to focus on ICE and the possibility of Hydrogen engines in the future, this was to make affordable cars for working people.

 

[RegionRat]

In 2017, she also bragged about divesting the CPU chips and she shut down the factory.

I wasn't paying much attention to the board of directors before I was informed of her decision by former colleagues at GM.

General Motors owned Hughes Aircraft for a while. My legal obligations to them ended in 2002, but they often called to consult long after the formality ended based on the previous relationship.

We spent a serious amount of our time modernizing & ruggedizing their controls electronics, including their production capabilities and the chip factory.

It wasn't based on emotion or ego, they needed that chip factory for a multitude of reasons. There were many who didn't believe that when we built it, but the math said otherwise and it paid off in short order.

To hear how childish Barra and the rest of them were when they justified the decisions made me think that she would be gone quickly. Much to my disappointment, she is still there.

If the folks who own shares and run that company want to destroy GM, then this is how you do it. Leave her in position, along with her crew, and GM in effect will disappear and become irrelevant.

The irony is that the parking lot of that former chip factory had to be used to park thousands of incomplete cars and trucks, due to not having those chips. Yet, she has not been held to account or been fired....

 

[Will Henry]

I took a ride in my son's new Hyundai Ionic the other day. Very nice car, and that sucker is quick! As he commented, because it's an all wheel drive, any idiot can launch it well. An early nineties Viper I drove was quicker, but it took some skill and some care.
We went to charge it up and it was apparent that the infrastructure is already being strained and charging stations were full, with people waiting. He has a charger wired in at home so we just went home and plugged in. It has good range, but still won't make it from his place to mine without charging. Cheap though; for now. WH

 

[ebb]

I am not sure she is wrong about this though, Toyota has been saying for years that the EV is not the way to go. You can put your head in the sand and say that they have zero emissions and are green but the electricity has to come from somewhere? What about digging up the world looking for lithium and all the other materials to make electric motors and batteries? There have now been 3 super freighters gone to the bottom of the ocean due to fires from EVs on board. They showed one burning in Connecticut the other day and said it would need a fire crew to spray it with water for 3 more days. I used to think that an unsophisticated EV with simple batteries would be the ticket for local deliveries, like mail where the route is 25 -30 miles and it charged till the next day. But the stuff they are doing to make the EVs compete with an ICE is making them so expensive and using such exotic materials they are worse than an ICE vehicle. Use the litmus test, Biden thinks it a great idea, doesn't that tell you something?

 

[rr2030]

The rationale behind the push for electric vehicles may not be readily apparent, much like the controversial issue of gun control. It seems that these initiatives are driven not necessarily by their immediate effectiveness, but by the overarching need for their existence. It's as if we, as individuals, are malleable and subject to the influence of a small group of individuals who wield significant power in the form of the world's largest corporations. These select few, numbering around a hundred(my guestimate), hold the reins of control and shape the course of our future actions.
This perspective can be viewed through the lens of the potential profits and influence to be gained by transitioning from fossil fuel consumption to electric power, whether it involves our vehicles or our homes. The outcome of this transition is a reduction in the range of choices available to us, which, in turn, tends to increase our cost of living.

 

[rwj]

The rationale behind the push for electric vehicles may not be readily apparent, much like the controversial issue of gun control. It seems that these initiatives are driven not necessarily by their immediate effectiveness, but by the overarching need for their existence. It's as if we, as individuals, are malleable and subject to the influence of a small group of individuals who wield significant power in the form of the world's largest corporations. These select few, numbering around a hundred(my guestimate), hold the reins of control and shape the course of our future actions.
This perspective can be viewed through the lens of the potential profits and influence to be gained by transitioning from fossil fuel consumption to electric power, whether it involves our vehicles or our homes. The outcome of this transition is a reduction in the range of choices available to us, which, in turn, tends to increase our cost of living.

It also makes controlling people easy… turn off their electricity and the furthest they can travel is one battery charge.

 

[hoz53]

Progress yes, but it is going to take time. many in the industry predict 2030 to 2035 for solid state EV batteries, which by the way are Lithium Ion. Toyota is among many other manufacturers working on solid state batteries.

View attachment 1486526

i looked at a tesla super charger the other day. nameplate is 500VDC and 300 amps. thats a serious amount of power for just charging a car.