Soot on Shoulders

[AlNyhus]

I agree but the op did say it happened on virgin brass as well as fired, fwiw.

In post #7, Hank mentions it's annealed each firing.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

In post #7, Hank mentions it's annealed each firing.

Good shootin' -Al

I thought I saw that and skimmed back over and missed it. Done right, rules that out, I would think. Thanks!

 

[Ccrider]

How far are you setting the shoulders back?

 

[SG4247]

Hank, if it were mine, I’d have heartburn with the .319” neck.

$.02

 

[Alex Wheeler]

In post #7, Hank mentions it's annealed each firing.

Good shootin' -Al

But is he? Theres annealing, and theres annealing. I dont do it anymore but when I did I found I had to go past what was recommended to get results. Many of us came to those same conclusions. Just something to consider. Probably not the end all be all here.

 

[Henryrifle]

Setting the shoulders back .001 to .002.

There are several things about that reamer I'd change today including the neck diameter. I didn't then but have an Autodod now. It really wouldn't matter what the neck is, assuming smaller, as I can easily adapt. That said, have a straight 284 reamer with a .321 neck. I didn't turn the brass for that chamber and it was fine. Again, I agree with you, but what about the .319 gives you heartburn?

Alex - I think you are saying that most of us don't know if we are annealing or not. I guess I'd put myself I that group. I use an AMP with Aztec firmware but have not sent any brass off for analysis. So, I'll agree that I think I am annealing brass.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Setting the shoulders back .001 to .002.

There are several things about that reamer I'd change today including the neck diameter. I didn't then but have an Autodod now. It really wouldn't matter what the neck is, assuming smaller, as I can easily adapt. That said, have a straight 284 reamer with a .321 neck. I didn't turn the brass for that chamber and it was fine. Again, I agree with you, but what about the .319 gives you heartburn?

Alex - I think you are saying that most of us don't know if we are annealing or not. I guess I'd put myself I that group. I use an AMP with Aztec firmware but have not sent any brass off for analysis. So, I'll agree that I think I am annealing brass.

I dont have an amp. But when I annealed, I tested how much on target. I still think every process we do needs to be tested on the target. What wins at the loading bench doent matter. So if your going to anneal, try different amounts of it and always compare it to non annealed. My thoughts anyhow.

 

[Henryrifle]

Alex, I don't disagree. I've said to friends many times in the last two years that I have a tremendous amount of respect for guys who compete at the highest levels of this sport and have a family and full-time job.

I don't have the time to test and validate whether my annealing is working or not. There are a few things that I have to, by faith, count on. Your response might well be: "then you don't have time to win either." Maybe that is true, but I'm tryin' real hard.

Appreciate all your knowledge and willingness to share--somewhat rare in F-Class.

Hank

 

[Alex Wheeler]

No Hank, I would not respond that way. I would say that you can test in matches too. You might as well test in matches if your short on time. Its quite common. Most of my best shooting guys have regular full time jobs. You just have to sacrifice a few.

 

[SG4247]

I use Aztec code 166 on my necked up 6.5-284 Lapua brass with the necks turned to .014”.

Anneal every firing.

Loaded neck día is .312”.

A new bullet doesn’t drag on the neck ID of a fired case, with the chamber neck bore at .315” which suprised me a little. That’s only .003”. My theory is that I want the neck as tight as possible to the bore, and still have a clean bullet release and get a good pressure seal between the brass neck and the chamber.

I still have too much vertical at 600, but I think it’s more the tune than anything.

 

[DaveTooley]

There's nothing better than shoulder to shoulder competition to validate accuracy. Are you getting your ass handed to you, in the hunt or what if I hadn't missed that wind call.

 

[Jim Ziegler]

I dont have an amp. But when I annealed, I tested how much on target. I still think every process we do needs to be tested on the target. What wins at the loading bench doent matter. So if your going to anneal, try different amounts of it and always compare it to non annealed. My thoughts anyhow.

Alex, just curious on why you don't anneal anymore?

 

[DaveTooley]

Alex isn't the only one. I never saw any improvement on the target. And no shorter case life. In target chambers brass movement is minimal meaning less work hardening. I have brass that has over 50 firings and I may have had to go down .001" in bushing size. YMMV

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex, just curious on why you don't anneal anymore?

Pretty much what Dave said. I have tested it in all kinds of rifles and could not improve over non annealed brass. In may cases it shot just as well, but not better. Im not saying my experience will be the same as everyones, I only tested this with quality brass in saami min spec chambers. But I did test it in everything from a dasher up to a 338 lapua imp.

 

[Henryrifle]

Deep into thread drift, but here is my experience with annealing. Before competition, I was shooting for fun--what a novel concept--right? And as long as we are talking blasphemy, it was a 6.5 Creedmoor!!!!

Before annealing the case necks would split long before the primer pocket got too loose. After annealing, no more split necks. That has nothing to do with accuracy but it did improve case life.

I will readily admit that back in those days, I did't know very much about brass, reloading or anything related to the sport. I know a lot more today but only a fraction of what some of you know.

Hank

 

[LVLAaron]

... As someone who only bumps a thou... interesting.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

To me, it's mostly simple math and whether or not an annealer pays out. To me, it does not but there are several factors in that. The biggie is moving the brass as little as possible to get the job done. That greatly extends brass life and aids accuracy to a smaller degree.
I have no issue with annealing done right because, done right, the only down side is time and the cost of the annealer. Done wrong, it can cause more problems than it's worth. Another huge factor is brass quality. I'm a Lapua snob but would love to be converted to American made brass. To each their own and not everyone's situation is the same either. IME, by the time i see an advantage to annealing, the brass has more than paid for itself. These days are another factor...just being able to get brass is a problem. That alone is a consideration, too. So far, not a big enough issue to me to go back to annealing but that could change. But as is, brass life is up to me and how hot I load, not up to the brass giving up anything accuracy wise. I've gone 50 plus hot firings on Lapua but if I get 20, I'm happy as a lark with the brass. At a buck apiece, that works out to a nickle per shot. It takes a lot of nickles to buy an AMP.

 

[Bill Norris]

I don't shoot competitively and probably never will but I think I shoot as much or more than the average shooter as I look at my log and see that I fired over 5000 rds. last year including CF RF & handgun. Since I began handloading in the mid 90's I never saw the need to anneal and still don't. Up until today I have never had a case neck split with good brass but I think years ago I did have one using 7mm Mag. cheap Winchester brass. I deleted the brass from my bench immediately. I contribute longevity of the brass to moving it only what it needs to fit back in the chamber and staying away from max. loads as much as possible.

 

[ArtinNC]

Soot on the neck , To light neck tension , If I load with ,001 or lighter neck tension I get soot on the neck ,but if I load with .003 tension no soot . I did that today . I think the bullet leaves the brass before the neck expands and you get blow by . Guess other people have said the same thing .

 

[X Count]

I had a similar issue with a 6.5x284. Factory chamber, no neck turn, lap brass but throated for 139gr lapuas and ended up running 130gr Berger's with long jump. Other bullets with short jump or jam no soot but when running long jump I was getting soot down past the shoulder and at times denting the shoulder.

There is probably some element of chamber clearances involved but seems like it's more about the staging of the chamber pressure building to where the case seals in the chamber and when the bullet leaves the case / meets the lands. If the case hasn't fully expanded by the time the bullet meets the lands the gas goes backwards. If the case isn't sealed against the chamber the pressure becomes equal on both sides of the case wall so there is no pressure differential to make it seal.