Will the 6PPC Ever Be Surpassed in the Short Range Benchrest Game ?

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Are the SR BR shooters using the wrong cartridge? Confused here???

No one said that, that I've seen, so not sure why you're confused. I've been very clear and honest. I have not made any claims that anything is better than a ppc but that others are as good and offer some benefits over the ppc. I'm quite sure that I wouldn't say anything here that I don't believe to be true. I've also said that you must be able to shoot the difference for there to be a difference. I'll do my best to help you understand if I'm the one who left anything unclear, Dave. You're very welcome to detail your experiences with a 6 Grendel or other cartridges you've tested EQUALLY to a ppc. Of course that would be of value. Otherwise, it's easy to say the obvious...a ppc is king until it's not. That is very clear but unless other options have been tested JUST AS THOROUGHLY, it'll always be deserving of question. Nothing in this world lasts forever and the ppc design is the basis for the 6 Grendel, so its fans can take solace in that, whichever is actually best. It's certainly a great cartridge(ppc) and it leaves very little to be desired. Not many things have stood the test of time that it has in this world. What...50 years or close? I think it says a lot alone or that IF something is better, that it's so close to a design that has been around for that long. I'm not advocating for you or anyone to change and I stand nothing to gain either way, monetarily. So I don't see the reason to begrudge anyone for trying to improve upon a legendary cartridge, with what's available to try. I do see a downside to just throwing up our hands and not trying to, though. If it's not your money, why do you care? I hated IROC racing, which is what BR has become. Surely by now, we can agree that trying new things is a good thing that should be encouraged, not minimalized. The Grendel case is a good one and it deserves to be worked with. Short range BR claims to be the pinnacle of accuracy and innovation in that regard. To minimize the work of others that are trying to advance the sport, even if or when we don't agree, is small and shortsighted. Or, are you waiting on the LR guys to find something better? They are being innovative, growing their game and trying new things.Even the PRS crowd is testing new stuff, but with less needed accuracy in that discipline.

I'm not knocking you personally but just the attitude that nothing besides a ppc will ever be worthwhile. To that, I strongly disagree.

What about a 12 twist instead a 13.5 or 14? The numbers support a 12 being best but most people still shoot a 13.5-14 and jackets are better than ever, fwiw. That may or may not be reason enough to re-visit the twist question.

 

[cwood59]

I hate Mondays at my office in Alvin. My company is so anal when it comes to the IT guys that it's unreal. When on the company server most "gun related" websites are blocked, so I have to spend my day surfing other web topics. But I digress.

I am finding this discussion seriously interesting. A lot of food for thought here.

Curtis

 

[Tim Singleton]

One way to think of it is
trying new things with the ppc hasn’t stopped.
Light 28 gr loads once were the norm with flat base bullets. Someone had to explore and chart the way to these Hot load windows
not saying the others don’t but the ppc and 133 combination has very readable tune characteristics
they do however take years to learn and that’s hard to do
it probably doesn’t matter but you do have to pick one and just stick to it to get anywhere
heck the 222 is probably still capable if that’s what someone decide they wanted to invest 5 or 10 years of time too. But just don’t know why you would

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

One way to think of it is
trying new things with the ppc hasn’t stopped.
Light 28 gr loads once we’re the norm with flat base bullets. Someone had to explore and chart the way to these Hot load windows
not saying the others don’t but the ppc and 133 combination has very readable tune characteristics
they do however take years to learn and that’s hard to do
it probably doesn’t matter but you do have to pick one and just stick to it to get anywhere
heck the 222 is probably still capable if that’s what someone decide they wanted to invest 5 or 10 years of time too. But just don’t know why you would

I posted my main reasons for doing a 6 Grendel several pages back now. No fireforming and a tad more capacity and speed if wanted. I love ya but we've discussed this before and you seem to fall into the category of those that believe nothing is or will be better than a ppc. That's ok and it's at least founded on the excellent results of the case and your results...but the Grendel is NOT re-inventing anything. It may or may not be a refinement of an already superb cartridge. But at the very least,...no fireforming and a tad more speed/capacity. Still within what most would consider the same node range but maybe able to reach the next one up. To me, it makes a ton of sense. To others, it may not. I do think the 222 is dead due to lack of horsepower. It might be able to run close at 100 but not at 200 and beyond. I think we are moving toward the "beyond" territory too, fwiw. For better or worse, new shooters don't get excited about 100 yards, even if they can't do it as well as you or short range requires it to be done. Still, that has nothing to do with this conversation, but looking way down the road.

 

[D Coots]

Interpret my words as you want. Bring any cartridge on...no problem. Any time you decide to shoot short range go for it. Talk is cheap. No problem. You are more than welcome to use any cartridge you want...I don't care. I don't care....I am not begrudging any one for anything as you interpet.,... if you are butt hurt for anything, so be it IDK,....If someone comes with a better cartridge than the 6 PPC...bring it.

As far as YOUR CLAIMS HERE IS A COPY OF YOUR LAST POST.

You said " I've been very clear and honest. I have not made any claims that anything is better than a ppc but that others are as good and offer some benefits over the ppc."

As far as I've seen you don't shoot a 6PPC.....SO....

Gosh, where have you folks been the last 50 years to beat it? Still waiting.....

As far as twist all the people ACTUALY SHOOTING MATCHES WITH A 6PPC have never thought of shooting matches with 12 twist , thank you for your insight.

Some day they may try a tuner.............

They are a bunch of stupid mo fo-s, they would never try something like that....

Bring it on, ACTUALLY SHOOT SOME SHORT RANGE, ....

My Grandpa came to Iowa in a box car with his mules and his farming equipment in a boxcar from Missouri in the 30's .


SHOW ME

 

[Tim Singleton]

I posted my main reasons for doing a 6 Grendel several pages back now. No fireforming and a tad more capacity and speed if wanted. I love ya but we've discussed this before and you seem to fall into the category of those that believe nothing is or will be better than a ppc. That's ok and it's at least founded on the excellent results of the case and your results...but the Grendel is NOT re-inventing anything. It may or may not be a refinement of an already superb cartridge. But at the very least,...no fireforming and a tad more speed/capacity. Still within what most would consider the same node range but maybe able to reach the next one up. To me, it makes a ton of sense. To others, it may not. I do think the 222 is dead due to lack of horsepower. It might be able to run close at 100 but not at 200 and beyond. I think we are moving toward the "beyond" territory too, fwiw. For better or worse, new shooters don't get excited about 100 yards, even if they can't do it as well as you or short range requires it to be done. Still, that has nothing to do with this conversation, but looking way down the road.

I’m kinda hard headed but not so bad I haven’t tried some stuff.
most folks have. I wouldn’t just assume experimentation isn’t on going
i have a 6 Grendel reamer and a PPC with a 40d shoulder. I think pindell and palmisano called it a 6 tyger
lots of folks are still exploring

 

[Mulligan]

One way to think of it is
trying new things with the ppc hasn’t stopped.
Light 28 gr loads once we’re the norm with flat base bullets. Someone had to explore and chart the way to these Hot load windows
not saying the others don’t but the ppc and 133 combination has very readable tune characteristics
they do however take years to learn and that’s hard to do
it probably doesn’t matter but you do have to pick one and just stick to it to get anywhere
heck the 222 is probably still capable if that’s what someone decide they wanted to invest 5 or 10 years of time too. But just don’t know why you would

Here in the hot DRY part of the west, 133 can be like …… well, a barn soured old nag. 8208, LT 31, LT-30, and 200.5 seem to be the only civilized powders at 100 degrees an 6%RH. However, they all get persnickety too.
Personally, it’s just more fun to look for the treasure, however elusive that may be.
CW

 

[D Coots]

One way to think of it is
trying new things with the ppc hasn’t stopped.
Light 28 gr loads once were the norm with flat base bullets. Someone had to explore and chart the way to these Hot load windows
not saying the others don’t but the ppc and 133 combination has very readable tune characteristics
they do however take years to learn and that’s hard to do
it probably doesn’t matter but you do have to pick one and just stick to it to get anywhere
heck the 222 is probably still capable if that’s what someone decide they wanted to invest 5 or 10 years of time too. But just don’t know why you w

I’m kinda hard headed but not so bad I haven’t tried some stuff.
most folks have. I wouldn’t just assume experimentation isn’t on going
i have a 6 Grendel reamer and a PPC with a 40d shoulder. I think pindell and palmisano called it a 6 tyger
lots of folks are still explori

I’m kinda hard headed but not so bad I haven’t tried some stuff.
most folks have. I wouldn’t just assume experimentation isn’t on going
i have a 6 Grendel reamer and a PPC with a 40d shoulder. I think pindell and palmisano called it a 6 tyger
lots of folks are still exploring

Sure they are Tim, the accuracy quest never ends. In the shooting game there are some very sharp minds, mechanical engineers, aeronautical engineers ect...it never ends..the aggs just keeps getting smaller and smaller. Even folks with an inquiring mind have some great ideas...

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Interpret my words as you want. Bring any cartridge on...no problem. Any time you decide to shoot short range go for it. Talk is cheap. No problem. You are more than welcome to use any cartridge you want...I don't care. I don't care....I am not begrudging any one for anything,... if you are butt hurt for anything, so be it,....If someone comes with a better cartridge than the 6 PPC...bring it.

As far as YOUR CLAIMS HERE IS A COPY OF YOUR LAST POST.

You said " I've been very clear and honest. I have not made any claims that anything is better than a ppc but that others are as good and offer some benefits over the ppc."

As far as I've seen you don't shoot a 6PPC.....

Gosh, where have you folks been the last 50 years to beat it? Still waiting.....

As far as twist all the people ACTUALY SHOOTING MATCHES WITH A 6PPC have never thought of shooting matches with 12 twist , thank you for your insight.

Some day they may try a tuner.............

They are a bunch of stupid mo fo-s, they would never try something like that....

Bring it on, ACTUALLY SHOOT SHOOT SOME SHORT RANGE, .... My Grandpa came to Iowa in a box car with his mules and his farming equipment in a boxcar from Missouri in the 30's .
SHOW ME

Just plain rude Dave. I do shoot short range and have for 20 years or about that.. and I have shot and built more ppc's than you've probably seen. You're really the one who's butt hurt here. I'm not the one getting bent out of shape at all. Just the opposite. This shouldn't be an upsetting subject and it certainly shouldn't be like your post but so be it, if that's how you want it.

I think I alluded to your type a few pages back. Remember, arrogant, ignorant or bias?
I have a lot of experience with a ppc, so what is your experience with a 6 Grendel? Should I guess or is it all of the above? Even if you didn't agree, this WAS a good thread. No discourse and just respectful discussion. Thanks for jacking that all up!

I'm sure you're a competent shooter. Wanna compare wood! I know you have a piece or two. So do I baby. So lets just move beyond the childishness and get back to an adult like discussion, where we don't have to cry when we don't agree...ok.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I’m kinda hard headed but not so bad I haven’t tried some stuff.
most folks have. I wouldn’t just assume experimentation isn’t on going
i have a 6 Grendel reamer and a PPC with a 40d shoulder. I think pindell and palmisano called it a 6 tyger
lots of folks are still exploring

Very close. Get it out and work with it. I didn't mean to imply others haven't tried things but I very much do think they spend a lot more time with known commodities. I think when I'm looking to learn about something new, it should get the bulk of my time and attention. I started with a 6 Grendel in 2016, after several ppc's and various 30's. Won National aggs with it in 2019,20 and 21. Still not saying it's better than a PPC but it ain't bad, head to head either.

 

[jackieschmidt]

How much neck tension are you using on this load Jackie, if you don't mind me asking ?

I shoot a .269 neck. I turn the brass to .0118. My 68 grn bullet has a .0004 “gas ring”. I use a .265 bushing.

 

[D Coots]

Very close. Get it out and work with it. I didn't mean to imply others haven't tried things but I very much do think they spend a lot more time with known commodities. I think when I'm looking to learn about something new, it should get the bulk of my time and attention. I started with a 6 Grendel in 2016, after several ppc's and various 30's. Won National aggs with it in 2019,20 and 21. Still not saying it's better than a PPC but it ain't bad, head to head either.

Congratulations. What were your aggs? Was that IBS or NBRSA Group National aggs??? Can't recall.

 

[Bill Norris]

I shoot a .269 neck. I turn the brass to .0118. My 68 grn bullet has a .0004 “gas ring”. I use a .265 bushing.

Thank you Sir.

 

[jackieschmidt]

What speed are you getting. Are your shooting 68gr. bullets?

I had planned on shooting my 6PPC at the 200 yard leg at The VFS Nationals, (I shot my 30 instead as it was shooting really well).

The week end before, I shot my 68 grn FB 30.6 grn load over a LabRadar and it averaged 3430 fps Out of a 21 inch barrel.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Congratulations. What were your aggs? Was that IBS or NBRSA Group National aggs??? Can't recall.

Nah, can't remember but I remember there were a lot of ppcs there. Does that mean I'm that much better? No, it doesn't but it is proof positive that a 6 Grendel can win head to head against a bunch of them. Why does this matter to you? Do your thing. Not one time have I said anything is better than your beloved cartridge. Just damn. Arrogance is not knowing other games exist or acknowledging them...then acting like your game is superior. Is that what some people mean by benchrest with a capital B? If so, I've done it but not real interested in that aspect of it.

 

[D Coots]

What were your aggs, Ibs, NBRSA Nationals, simple question. I shot at all .

Couldn't find you on any if them. Show me if I'm wrong please. I believe I missed you on my results?????Possibly a misprint....

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

What were your aggs, Ibs, NBRSA Nationals, simple question.

You weren't at either. Show me if I'm wrong please.

See above. Head to head..means just that. So what difference does it make. I'm sure your far better than us.

 

[D Coots]

So your last post is a No Answer. No National event...really? Amazing.

I get my butt kicked all the time, NBRSA Nationals last week is just one example. but anyone that knows me will never call me a liar. My worst performance in my shooting career was last week.

I held a Nationals at my range a couple of weeks ago at my range here at home....Yep, I won.

Later
Dave

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I get my butt kicked all the time, NBRSA Nationals last week is just one, but anyone that knows me will never call me a liar.

I held a Nationals at my range a couple of week ago at my range here at home....

Later
Dave

Dave, if you weren't in your own little exclusive world, you would know and wouldn't have to ask what org it was. Kinda gets to my point doesn't it? Time for this thread to get locked yet, so no one knows anything about it? Man, you are a piece of work. Bless your heart.

What exactly is your point here, Dave?

 

[D Coots]

My point is that maybe you are not really a real competitor that wins National events. You don't seem to be able to answer simple questions about your claims about winning the National events. Why get pissed off? Simple question...Why not answer? No wonder you would like the thread locked as you can not produce facts to confirm your boasts.

I live in my own little truthful world.