1/4 MOA Sabatti Rifle Claim -- Tunnel Test

[jackieschmidt]

What a great test. Something I always wanted to try.
I’m guessing it was targets in frames, no backing?

This has been done, more than once, though certainly not with a bullet traveling through a piece of paper on it’s way to another.

I don’t have a link, but in my close to 30 years of Competitive Shooting, I certainly recall reading about such a test.

external ballistics begin the instant the bullet exits the muzzle. The rifle has already done it’s part. All things being equal, (they rarely are outdoors), a group of bullets that passed 100 yards at 1.00 MOA will not miraculously go to .500 MOA at 200 yards, and so on.

 

[Ironworker]

Where can we buy these?

 

[M-61]

This has been done, more than once, though certainly not with a bullet traveling through a piece of paper on it’s way to another.

Well after re- reading the post it seems the targets were placed directly behind each other.
However long I’ve been shooting is irrelevant.
And I certainly never implied what some call ‘the bullet going to sleep’ garbage.
Depending on the OP’s answer I wanted to see if indeed it was through progressive targets.
Since there is always a disconnect between your posts and mine, for further clarity I never subscribed to a bad 100 yard group becoming a great 500 yard one. Guided missiles be it wire, radar, or infrared do a great job at it.

 

[6Creed73]

What a great test. Something I always wanted to try.
I’m guessing it was targets in frames, no backing?

Correct. We built a wooden frame and stapled plotter paper to it. The targets were about 3ft wide and 5ft tall. It was very cool to see the 3 targets group the same, but with a wider spread. I'd love to do the same test at longer distances, but we don't have a place to do it.

 

[Murray Brook]

As jackie posted I remember reading of such a test. I believe there was also high speed cameras involved to detect any bullet damage. I believe Brian Litz was involved in this test, maybe even David Tubbs.

 

[nakneker]

If the rifle shoots that good with a Bi Pod and that Rest, that’s pretty impressive. Imagine the possibilities with a proper set up. Pretty impressive to me.

 

[INTJ]

Your reply sounds like a prs or nrl rimfire guy...
They can't shoot one hole groups at 50 yards, but insist ARA bench guys at 50 yard don't mean nothing.
How do they shoot at 200-300 yards.

Well
Just like your reply and opinion.
How many days, and how many rounds can you tell me you fire at 600 yards in same environmental conditions repeatedly?
You can't.
Your constantly readjusting to dope calculations and then believe it proves anything about the rifle?
Rimfire optimized accuracy is at 50 yards/meters because if the least change in variable due to environment.
Same as a centerfire is 100 yards for same reason.
If you can't repeat exact same conditions. You can't accurately compare results

LOL!! I am a LRBR competitor. The last time I shot my LRBR rifles at short range, the HG shot .3" at 385 yds. I don't remember if that load ever worked out because all the rest of my tuning took place at 1000 yds. Why? Because a short range group is meaningless in a long range rifle.

I have shot MANY one hole 100 yd groups while doing load development for customer hunting rifles. All such groups provide are possible loads to test at longer ranges.

At 300 yds we start to get a decent picture of what a long range rifle will do, and at 600+ we get a better picture.

As to repeatability, a good example is from a couple of matches ago where my 10 shot groups at 1000 yds were 5.7, 3.9, 4.2, and 5.0.

Now of you do want to shoot a short range BR rifle, then by all means test at 100 yds because that is where you compete. But it better shoot significantly better then 1/4 MOA 3-shot groups......

 

[INTJ]

I have to respectfully disagree with this. Pretty much everyone I know does load development at 100 yards. The data collected during load development can definitely help predict a load's performance at longer range.

A few us actually tested this a few years back. A guy I shoot with has private land with a 600 yard range. We setup paper targets at 100, 300, 500...one directly behind the other. We wanted to see if 1 MOA at 100 yards was still 1 MOA at 500 yards. What we found was it's more to do with the ammo than the rifle. With my handloads that had good ES/SD, if it was 1/2 MOA at 100, it was a 1/2 MOA at 500.

And like I posted earlier, we have seen many one-hole 100 yd loads with low ES and low SD shoot 12"+ at 500 yds. There are lots of reasons why that might be.

Now when we get a sub 1/2 minute 650 yd load, it will usually also be sub 1/2 minute at 100 yds. But a good 100 yd load is not a sure bet to shoot well at longer range. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

I am not talking about a sample size of one or two rifles. I personally did load development for about hundred rifles one year, and my current load developer has done many more. We both quickly became suspicious of relying on 100 yd groups.

 

[Knotwild]

People are snapping them up like crazy - Bud's Gunshop is sold out of all models!

 

[INTJ]

Uh, no...it isn't. You apparently don't understand angular dispersion very well. In fact, it is groups fired at longer range that often have little relationship to those fired at closer distances such as 100 yd because other factors such as external wind effects and shooter error can dramatically increase shot dispersion. It never goes the other direction. Groups fired at shorter distance as such as 100 yd are the better measure of how good a load actually is because the influence of external factors is minimized. No rifle or load accidentally shoots consistent quarter MOA groups at 100 yds. When that happens, it's not an accident. Further, if someone has a rifle capable of consistently shooting quarter minute groups at 100 yd, whether they are 3 shots or 5 shots, and it won't shoot well at 500+ yd, it's not the rifle and load, but something else such as shooter error or external conditions. This is just simple external ballistics and is well-established.

I think the performance of these Sabatti rifles is pretty impressive for non-custom rifles. For certain individuals and/or purposes, I'm sure they would work well. However, for a specific purpose such as F-Class shooting, maybe not so much. For example, the barrel lengths and some features offered are not going to allow for shooting optimized handloads with the uber high BC long heavy bullets favored by F-Class shooters. One could certainly mitigate that by having a quality aftermarket barrel chambered, but that would only put the rifle a little closer to the cost of a custom build. At some point, it's probably just better to have the custom rifle built so you can get the exact specs you want. Nonetheless, I'm impressed with their out-of-the-box precision and they look good.

Oh my gosh! That is hilarious!! So I don't understand angular dispersion. LOL!!!

For those of us who compete at long range, whether it be LRBR (like me), or F-Class, or probably even PRS; we very well understand angular dispersion. We also understand about tuning for a certain distance and how to mitigate the effects of wind and other environmental conditions when tuning loads at long range.

Now I don't disagree that 100 yd groups minimize external factors. In fact, 100 yd groups minimize external factors so much that it can hide the errors of a large extreme spread or too slow of a twist......and that is the point. Shooting at 100 yds is very forgiving of issues that show up at longer ranges.

I have shot many one hole 100 yd groups that had an ES of 50+ fps. While I don't chase ES or SD--I chase group size--such a group is not even worth testing at longer ranges. With a 50 fps ES it will string vertically at distance.

So don't rely on 100 yd groups unless you don't plan to shoot much farther.

I have no dog in the fight about whether these Sabatti rifles are any good. I just know that if they are designed to be shot at longer ranges, that 100 yd groups don't mean much and they they should be tested at longer ranges.

 

[Rampsey]

LOL!! I am a LRBR competitor. The last time I shot my LRBR rifles at short range, the HG shot a .3 at 385 yds. I don't remember if that load ever worked out because all the rest of my tuning took place at 1000 yds. Why? Because a short range group is meaningless in a long range rifle.

I have shot MANY one hole 100 yd groups while doing load development for customer hunting rifles. All such groups provide are possible loads to test at longer ranges.

At 300 yds we start to get a decent picture of what a long range rifle will do, and at 600+ we get a better picture.

As to repeatability, a good example is from a couple of matches ago where my 10 shot groups at 1000 yds were 5.7, 3.9, 4.2, and 5.0.

Now of you do want to shoot a short range BR rifle, then by all means test at 100 yds because that is where you compete. But it better shoot significantly better then 1/4 MOA 2-shot groups......

But your missing the point..you bring up previous 10 shot 1000 yard groups.
How many of those 40 shots were fired without adjustment and correction?
My point, you can't control conditions at extended ranges repeatably hour after hour, day after day.
So how much is the rifles "accuracy ".
How much is the bullets accuracy that may or may not stabilize until 300 yards but has a wobble at 100?
Yes your achievement of repeated hits is great.
But while constantly having to change and correct. How much is literally adjustment for rifles precision, or is it conditions precision adjustment.
Without a 1000 yard controlled tunnel?
Where no adjustment required after 1 hit.
where is the rifles accuracy
How much is

 

[INTJ]

But your missing the point..you bring up previous 10 shot 1000 yard groups.
How many of those 40 shots were fired without adjustment and correction?
My point, you can't control conditions at extended ranges repeatably hour after hour, day after day.
So how much is the rifles "accuracy ".
How much is the bullets accuracy that may or may not stabilize until 300 yards but has a wobble at 100?
Yes your achievement of repeated hits is great.
But while constantly having to change and correct. How much is literally adjustment for rifles precision, or is it conditions precision adjustment.
Without a 1000 yard controlled tunnel?
Where no adjustment required after 1 hit.
where is the rifles accuracy
How much is

Those 40 shots were all the same load. I didn't make any adjustments, just centered the reticle dot on the bull and shot each string as fast and smooth as I could. In LRBR, all record targets are in the blind. We get no feedback while we are shooting our record target.

Yes, there is always group size variation, but that happens even at close range.

What I think you might be getting at is how do I pick the best group if I tune my load at long range while dealing with changing conditions. Obviously, if I were to shoot four groups in a row, each group would be shot in a different condition and that could give me a false reading.

What I do is shoot four 3-shot groups of varying loads. I shoot them round-robin all at the same POI at the same time. Bullet tips are colored. I then connect the dots. That mitigates the issue of changing conditions.

I have been where many of you are now. I used to do my long range load development at 100 and 200 yds. That worked okay, but I was never able to run with the guys at the top finding loads that way.

Now I do know top competitors who tune at 600 yds and do well at 600 and 1000, but the best groups I have seen at 1000 have been tuned at 1000.

For hunting rifles we shoot two and three shot groups at 100 until we get around 1/2 MOA then we do final load development with three shot groups at 500 or 650. Sometimes the 100 yd loads hold up, sometimes they don't.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Oh my gosh! That is hilarious!! So I don't understand angular dispersion. LOL!!!

For those of us who compete at long range, whether it be LRBR (like me), or F-Class, or probably even PRS; we very well understand angular dispersion. We also understand about tuning for a certain distance and how to mitigate the effects of wind and other environmental conditions when tuning loads at long range.

Now I don't disagree that 100 yd groups minimize external factors. In fact, 100 yd groups minimize external factors so much that it can hide the errors of a large extreme spread or too slow of a twist......and that is the point. Shooting at 100 yds is very forgiving of issues that show up at longer ranges.

I have shot many one hole 100 yd groups that had an ES of 50+ fps. While I don't chase ES or SD--I chase group size--such a group is not even worth testing at longer ranges. With a 50 fps ES it will string vertically at distance.

So don't rely on 100 yd groups unless you don't plan to shoot much farther.

I have no dog in the fight about whether these Sabatti rifles are any good. I just know that if they are designed to be shot at longer ranges, that 100 yd groups don't mean much and they they should be tested at longer ranges.

I get it, you BR folks like to tune at distance among other things. That doesn't change the fact that LRBR represents a really small subgroup from all shooters, and your statement that groups at 100 yd are meaningless is just a ludicrous attempt to extrapolate something specific to your discipline over onto everyone else. It's even more ludicrous in light of the fact that these Sabatti rifles aren't meant for LRBR by any stretch of the imagination. For the vast majority of shooters, shooting groups at 100 yd is perfectly viable way to tune in a rifle/load, and I think there are many shooters that would like to have a rifle with this kind of precision that didn't cost as much as a custom build. Further, I have yet to see a load in one of my F-TR rifles that could consistently shoot quarter MOA groups at 100 yd fail to be capable of winning matches at 600 or 1000 yd, as long as I didn't do anything stupid behind the rifle. So groups fired at relatively short distances can easily be quite meaningful unless you happen to be in some specific discipline such as LRBR or possibly ELR shooting. Self-serving and incorrect generalizations such as you made serve no good purpose.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Did anyone try to return a dud under a warranty claim?
-

They did and the dealers helped them sort it out but its a bit harder this side of the pond to change a riffle/barrel if you have a problem with one

 

[seymour fish]

Uh, no...it isn't. You apparently don't understand angular dispersion very well. In fact, it is groups fired at longer range that often have little relationship to those fired at closer distances such as 100 yd because other factors such as external wind effects and shooter error can dramatically increase shot dispersion. It never goes the other direction. Groups fired at shorter distance as such as 100 yd are the better measure of how good a load actually is because the influence of external factors is minimized. No rifle or load accidentally shoots consistent quarter MOA groups at 100 yds. When that happens, it's not an accident. Further, if someone has a rifle capable of consistently shooting quarter minute groups at 100 yd, whether they are 3 shots or 5 shots, and it won't shoot well at 500+ yd, it's not the rifle and load, but something else such as shooter error or external conditions. This is just simple external ballistics and is well-established.

I think the performance of these Sabatti rifles is pretty impressive for non-custom rifles. For certain individuals and/or purposes, I'm sure they would work well. However, for a specific purpose such as F-Class shooting, maybe not so much. For example, the barrel lengths and some features offered are not going to allow for shooting optimized handloads with the uber high BC long heavy bullets favored by F-Class shooters. One could certainly mitigate that by having a quality aftermarket barrel chambered, but that would only put the rifle a little closer to the cost of a custom build. At some point, it's probably just better to have the custom rifle built so you can get the exact specs you want. Nonetheless, I'm impressed with their out-of-the-box precision and they look good.

Ned, I enjoy your posts. I have oned a rifle which since 1996 has demonstrated tighter groups at 600 and 1000 than at 100. It would take the $ from Litz. 6.5-06 ai/ 140 Jlk jammed/blueprinted 700 with a 27-1/2” pacnor 1:8.6 at 3160. The rifle can be tuned to shoot in the ones at 100 with vv n-560, yet that load shoots 6” at 600, all vertical. With n165 the load is tuned to produce 3/4” groups at 100, all vertical, yet shoot 1” at 600 and 2-1/2 to 4” at 1000. It continues to do so. Old Lone Wolf fiberglass/Kevlar stock bedded/pillars/40 inch pounds. It seems the only explanation is positive compensation. As for cone of dispersion, the groups at distance are triangular. All 3-shot groups quoted, none rapid fire, all in mild steady conditions shot BR style with firm grip. 600 reds on this original bbl to date, and cleaned every 20-30 shots to bare metal with a couple foulers before going for groups. I state all this a simple fact. As for credentials : 2nd in class A rimfire silhouette at Texas State Championship 2004 with a 77//2 and a 10/22, first silhouette match I ever shot. Third place one relay at the Tex State Longrange ftr 2014 with a bone stock savage Palma 308/ 1:13 with a 168 Hybrid/ Sinclair bipod/ rear Caldwell squeeze bag. This 6.5 is the only rifle in the stable that exhibits this phenomenon.

 

[mike a]

put them rifles in the hands of some good shooters in competition. Then we’ll know!

 

[762willdo]

Re-inventing the mouse trap…….

 

[nakneker]

I’ll just add this thread has turned into a debate about groups at 100, 600 and 1000 and their relevance to the long range game, kind of derails the intent of introducing a new rifle to the crowd. This is the first time I’ve heard of the Sabatti, hope to hear more about the rifle.

 

[jimmymac]

I’ve had a bunch of factory rifles. None have ever shot that good at 100 yards. I’m impressed.

 

[LHSmith]

Well, as the guy claims the orange stocked one is the "F-Class or benchrest model. So why can't it be compared to a custom BR -it's got a heavy barrel and a stock suitable for SR BR?......and they are the ones making such a stringent accuracy claim. He had some more rounds left in the box. Two 3-round groups is a poor evaluation - and remember this is done in a tunnel. Reading the replies on the you-tube channel gives one a better dose of reality.