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Academic question on "similar" Powders.

Often wondered why different powders of the same general burn rate can frequently generate rather markedly different results on paper. Even if charge adjusted to achieve the same muzzle velocity POI and group sizes can be quite different. Is it the shape of the pressure curve, efficiency of case fill ratio, ignition characteristics, burn rate retardants, specific impulse of the powder etc...

Really looking for something technically interesting not just heresay and follow the manual,

Second part of this is what are the opinions on the question of can you reasonably expect to develop and tune a load with two different but similar powders that have he same on target performance after adjusting normal parameters to achieve a proper tune?
 
Often wondered why different powders of the same general burn rate can frequently generate rather markedly different results on paper. Even if charge adjusted to achieve the same muzzle velocity POI and group sizes can be quite different. Is it the shape of the pressure curve, efficiency of case fill ratio, ignition characteristics, burn rate retardants, specific impulse of the powder etc...

Really looking for something technically interesting not just heresay and follow the manual,

Second part of this is what are the opinions on the question of can you reasonably expect to develop and tune a load with two different but similar powders that have he same on target performance after adjusting normal parameters to achieve a proper tune?
There is a hornady podcast on YouTube about powders talks a little about some of this stuff. I enjoyed it.
 
Was sort of hoping someone like them, Hodgdon or our British friend Laurie Holland would respond for all to see and enjoy.
You can post VV response. They are helpful and who better knows powder than the maker of it. Hodgdon doesnt make a thing. Laurie is good info
 
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I have spent a good bunch of time using GRT and have found several theories to your various questions of inputs. I am testing several of them. I don’t have any answers, but think you are asking the right questions for exploration. In my simple mind the shape of the pressure curve matters. Fill and burn rates matter. Seating depth relative to the bullet profile matters. A clean and repeatable ignition matters.

For your second question, yes. I have multiple barrels shooting N555, H4350, and R16 that I have independently developed and can interchange and see virtually the same precision results on paper.
 
...Is it the shape of the pressure curve, efficiency of case fill ratio, ignition characteristics, burn rate retardants, specific impulse of the powder etc...
Yes. Reproducing the same muzzle velocity of a load that shoots well with one powder, but using a different powder may not work well at all. Why? For one thing, the acceleration of the bullet with the new powder, and therefore the barrel occupancy time, will almost certainly not be exactly the same. Thus the load with the new powder will likely require a complete tuning process be carried out, even if it seems close [on paper] in terms of burn rate.

Another way to state basically the same thing would be that the pressures curves would need to be very close, if not identical, for two powders to behave exactly the same in terms of tuning a load with otherwise identical components (i.e. same bullet, brass, primer, etc.). The pressure curve entails not only the burn rate of the powder, but also the relative amount of gas expansion per charge weight increment. The two are not necessarily the same. As you noted, things such as the case fill ratio, ignition chacteristics, and burn rate retardants can directly affect burn rate, thereby also directly affecting gas expansion rate; i.e. the pressure curve.

As David noted, reloading software such as GRT or QuickLoad can be used to analyze various load parameters in an attempt to come up withsome kind of "unifying theory". However, such programs often seem to provide better outputs after the fact (i.e. characterizing a given load empirically after all the pertinent data has been collected and entered into the program), than they do in terms of predictive behavior. The inherent problem lies in the fact that each piece of pertinent information we use as part of such programs often consists of a large number of variables that are ultimately lumped into a single data entry, such as powder burn rate, for example. Powder burn rate can be affected by case volume, case shape, bullet weight, the primer used, and temperature, among other things. It is simply not possible to store all possible combinations in such a program, even for a single powder, so the manufacturers typically provide a single measured powder burn rate and then allow the user to change/alter that value to best fit their results. Thus, we are adjusting variables to fit the measured data, rather than necessarily predicting a given outcome accurately. Fortunately, the use of such programs for predictive purposes tends to become better the more one works with a given load and can continually record/modify/input updated information.

I find the whole business of load development seems rather well-represented by the concept of seating depth. If anyone really knows exactly what we're doing when we optimize seating depth, I have yet to hear a full and complete explanation. In fact, I've heard many different explanations for it, but none are really very satisfying. One explanation may seem to cover certain aspects of seating depth optimization well, but not fit well at all with certain other aspects. At the end of the day however, it doesn't really matter, because it is a simple enough thing to do a seating depth test and determine the answer empirically. So although I'd really love to know exactly what is happening when we tune a load with seating depth, if only for predictive purposes, I have learned to simply settle for the results of a seating depth test. It may well be that as time goes on, more definitive answers to these questions become readily available. Until that time, we can still do most of what we need via typical [experimental] load development processes.
 
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Often wondered why different powders of the same general burn rate can frequently generate rather markedly different results on paper. .... Is it the shape of the pressure curve, efficiency of case fill ratio, ignition characteristics, burn rate retardants, specific impulse of the powder etc...

Yes, all those variables effect the result.

Second part of this is what are the opinions on the question of can you reasonably expect to develop and tune a load with two different but similar powders that have he same on target performance after adjusting normal parameters to achieve a proper tune?

You can theoretically tune two loads to perform the same on target, but in practice out of the two combinations you have, you may have one optimum "best performing" combination that can't be matched by the second no matter what you do.

The chance of finding two "best performing" loads with two different powders is very slim, but not impossible.
 
Probably one of the best sources of information on powders is in Hatcher's Notebook. While it's over 70 years old the information still holds. The is also a book available online as a PDF called Ammunition Making by G. Frost that has a section on Powder. Jeff Stewart, former Hornady Ballistician, who was featured on Hornady Podcast 50 has an excellent book titled Ammunition, Demystified. And yes, most of the items mentioned in the OP have an effect on precision.
 
Burning rate is only one parameter which describes a powder. The amount of energy released is obviously another major component. For programs such as Quick Load and Gordons, I'm not sure why users have focused only on adjusting burning rate to make the calculated velocity match the actual result?
 
Do you put this much thought into the gas or diesel you put in the vehicle? Combustion is complex and the assumptions used don't likely tell the whole story. Good enough to ballpark the velocity and pressure for relative comparison. We still need the proof on paper.
 
Do you put this much thought into the gas or diesel you put in the vehicle? Combustion is complex and the assumptions used don't likely tell the whole story. Good enough to ballpark the velocity and pressure for relative comparison. We still need the proof on paper.
Lol, made me think of more years ago than I care to admit. I was involved with a race team, everything from window lickers and gear heads, to chemist. The chemist was your basic nerd, he kept a close eye on all of the weather. He could come off with some pretty interesting fuel blends, I have to admit he made some HP. It was an interesting group to say the least.

In turn to your comment, I run “regular” in my everyday driver, 223, the hot rods get “ethel”, some times E85;-) 6BR/6CM really showing my age now.
 

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