6mm BR what?

[doninreno]

I know that this horse has been beat to death on many forums, in magazines and in general BS among knowledgeable shooters/reloders, but I still see conflicting info in print on what is the difference between a 6mm BR "REMINGTON" and a 6mm BR NORMA. I've looked at and read in detail MANY things and found many supposedly "last word"/ultimate authority diagrams like from CIP, SAAMI and from various die and/or bullet manufacturers and reloading manuals and find that there seems to be little agreement on the case dimensions (actually in thousandths of an inch) or chamber specs, what name (Rem or Norma) means anything and things like the 6mm BR Remington is so long gone/obsolete that a lot of dies that SAY 6mm BR Remington are actually for the NORMA version...AARRRGH!

Yeah, I know the difference is VERY slight and the chamber dimensions are somewhat different to allow a longer bullet being seated further out in the NORMA version (so, cartridge OAL, IIRC) is obviously different in the diagrams, but trying to figure the die situation out seems to be nearly impossible. Soo---does anyone on here have anything to point me in a so-called DIFINITIVE direction so I can feel comfortable that I understand all this? I love this cartridge and its accuracy, not to mention being VERY pleasant to shoot...I once shot it in a 300 yard match where I shot in relays with another shooter on the same target shooting the same caliber (with the shot Marker system) and we literally tore the X ring out of the target, which after a couple of relays which gave us both an excellent "light spot" of a bull to shoot at!!

I'm currently in the middle of "marathon" case, chamber and brass measuring thing trying to get it all sorted out satisfactorily and seem to be mostly just screwing my mind up!!

Please help me out here if you can!!

 

[rwj]

I’m using Redding Competition Dies marked 6BR Remington to assemble ammunition being fired from a 6BR Norma chamber. Hope this helps shorten your marathon!

 

[doninreno]

I’m using Redding Competition Dies marked 6BR Remington to assemble ammunition being fired from a 6BR Norma chamber. Hope this helps shorten your marathon!

Yeah...seems like pretty much all the brass I have (LAPUA and Petersen) is Marked NORMA, but my Redding dies are marked Remington and the smith that just recently did the chamber for me can't remember what the reamer was marked (belonged to a different guy). Is there actually 6mm Br brass out there that is marked 6mm BR Remington? Never even looked for it! I'm beginning to think that , in reality, what I'll be doing is basically fire forming every which kind of brass to MY CHAMBER and as long as I don't go pulling the brass apart, it will all just wind up being "fireformed" to my individual chamber and I can happily go on shooting it until it just wears out ( or brass becomes available again!). And I'll NEVER, EVER actually, truly figure this all out and just drop dead some night (hope fully when I'm 100) never knowing!!

 

[Lefty Trigger]

My understanding was the Remington version was intended for light weight bullets and was short throated. Norma ran with it and modified the original platform for heavier bullets in the 90gr to 107gr class bullets. At least that was what I was told to watch out for on older rifles chambered in 6BR Remington.

 

[rockhound78]

I thought that the Norma version had a longer neck on the case, 1.56 vs 1.52? I have some Remington brass marked 6mm Br

 

[SKWERLZ]

It’s mostly a freebore difference for Norma to run heavier bullets.

 

[Zero333]

What @rwj said...

6 mm BR Norma....


===============================================

6 mm BR Remington...




No difference in case dimensions...
Only COAL, Freebore and Barrel Twist.

 

[wildcatter]

There is no more difference than there is between custom readers for tigh neck chambers. If you firework new brass from your chamber, and know the reamer neck length, you can set your cases up for either after fireforming.

This is how any custom gun is setup for brass. I even cheat and trim and turn necks after I firework. But I use bullseye and corn cob media, with case plugged with bar soap.

Then I set my neck turner up, and turn then trim my necks. I then use a Redding 6BR form die to bump my shoulder .002" neck size with the proper bushing in my Wilson neck die for my .268" neck, standard neck you would use the proper bushing for you chamber, prime and charge then seat with my Wilson seater.

This setup won high score at 600 yards shooting with 29 competitors it's last outing.

If your using a factory chambered gun, simply trim to Sami specs for either minimum case length, as all factory chambers run on the long side for neck length.

You cam make it as complicated as you want, but it won't shoot any better than keeping it simple!

 

[BowWow]

IIRC, the neck was longer and that was it. Just a version of the 6br Remington for longer bullets.


I bought Redding dies for the 6br but IIRC the box read 6mm BR Remington. They worked just fine.

 

[doninreno]

Yeah, simple is better in my book, too. Matter of fact, simple in my book means NO TRIM necks, which is something I, personally, don't have time or inclination to mess with and prefer just using a neck bushing die . All I really want to do is run them through a die and then neck LENGTH trim, deburr and taper if necessary and proceed to reload. I've found LAPUA brass to be quite consistent as far as neck thickness goes. This works good for me and shoots well enough to have fun and be reasonably competitive. I'm about 35-40 years past when I was out setting records and winning state matches, regional stuff and at least placing in Nationals and am now at the point (age wise) where I just want to shoot and have fun without embarrassing myself.....OLD GUYS just wanna have fun!! Remember that hit song?? (ohh...wait.....maybe that was somewhat different! Maybe it was something about GIRLS ???)

BUT, I would sure like to TRULY understand the history of these two (NORMA and REMINGTON 6mmBRs) and understand what has happened historically and why there appears to be so much mis-information about them and the slight differences (or not!)

Thanks to all that have replied to my original post!

 

[Monte F]

Don,

If you were referring to the match you and I shot out the center of the target, I was shooting my .308win. F-TR. with 169gr. Sierra MatchKings.

The Norma looks to have a .241 longer COAL (almost one bullet diameter) and may not chamber in a Rem. cut chamber. I would think most dies (especially bushing type) probably have a long enough neck to size either case and a Rem. case should chamber in either Norma or Rem.

I"m sure I made this clear as mud for you.

Monte

 

[doninreno]

Don,

If you were referring to the match you and I shot out the center of the target, I was shooting my .308win. F-TR. with 169gr. Sierra MatchKings.

The Norma looks to have a .241 longer neck (almost one bullet diameter) and should not chamber in a Rem. cut chamber. I would think most dies (especially bushing type) probably have a long enough neck to size either case and a Rem. case should chamber in either Norma or Rem.

I"m sure I made this clear as mud for you.

Monte

Monte,

Thanks for the response. And I had forgotten about the match you and I shot in and then had a very similar thing happen at that same match on a different weekend with a different relay partner. (whom you also know)

Don't worry about the "mud". I've been trying to figure this all out since I started fooling with the 6mm B WHAT several years ago and have never succeeded in coming up with a definitive answer that I thought was the ABSOLUTE answer....I think the only way to sorta understand all this is to listen to as many people as one can, do research on all the data available and then "interpolate" to come up with some sort of a satisfying, reasonably comprehensive answer. It now appears to me that the best way to go is to get things as "custom" sized to MY chamber (which I'm going to from here on out call a "6mm BW WHAT") in my new barrel is to just sorta fireform EVERYTHING and then just proceed to go shoot that and be Alfred E Newman (What, ME worry??).

 

[Webster]

I know that this horse has been beat to death on many forums, in magazines and in general BS among knowledgeable shooters/reloders, but I still see conflicting info in print on what is the difference between a 6mm BR "REMINGTON" and a 6mm BR NORMA. I've looked at and read in detail MANY things and found many supposedly "last word"/ultimate authority diagrams like from CIP, SAAMI and from various die and/or bullet manufacturers and reloading manuals and find that there seems to be little agreement on the case dimensions (actually in thousandths of an inch) or chamber specs, what name (Rem or Norma) means anything and things like the 6mm BR Remington is so long gone/obsolete that a lot of dies that SAY 6mm BR Remington are actually for the NORMA version...AARRRGH!

Yeah, I know the difference is VERY slight and the chamber dimensions are somewhat different to allow a longer bullet being seated further out in the NORMA version (so, cartridge OAL, IIRC) is obviously different in the diagrams, but trying to figure the die situation out seems to be nearly impossible. Soo---does anyone on here have anything to point me in a so-called DIFINITIVE direction so I can feel comfortable that I understand all this? I love this cartridge and its accuracy, not to mention being VERY pleasant to shoot...I once shot it in a 300 yard match where I shot in relays with another shooter on the same target shooting the same caliber (with the shot Marker system) and we literally tore the X ring out of the target, which after a couple of relays which gave us both an excellent "light spot" of a bull to shoot at!!

I'm currently in the middle of "marathon" case, chamber and brass measuring thing trying to get it all sorted out satisfactorily and seem to be mostly just screwing my mind up!!

Please help me out here if you can!!

There's no reason to have any concern about the 6BR Rem. I don't think anyone chambersa rifle for it. Why are you concerned about a cartridge no-one uses. The subject was covered about a month ago with great detail. Do a search for the post.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

If compare seating depths in old vs. new load books. 22BR for instance, 55gr Blitzking in Remington data was 2.020 coal and new Norma data with the same bullet is 2.110 coal.

 

[doninreno]

I really DO NOT HAVE ANY CONCERN about the 6mm BR Remington thing...BUT I AM curious as to why I see that label or marking so often and everyone seems to claim to "KNOW" all about yet, yet there is disagreement in what the published "standard" case dimensions are supposed to be. I get that the OAL stuff is gonna be different---mostly in the chamber and sometimes in the neck length specs-------that is pretty much what led to the "invention" of the NORMA version. If no one chambers for the 6mm BR Rem anymore why do most all the dies I see for sale and even some NEW rifles say "6mm BR Remington" on them? As you pointed out, there has been a LOT published about this and, as I stated previously, I HAVE DONE a LOT of reading/research on this subject and constantly wonder how this all got so balled up in the first place.....but in spite of that there is still an awful lot of 6mm BR stuff out there and the 6mm BR NORMA and Remington ARE different In many cases, if only slightly.

 

[wildcatter]

You are way over thinking this! Look at it the same way you do two people, one talking about it cost 10 cents, and one taking about it only costing a dime. That's about the same thing! One used 5 pennies and a Nicole to get the results the guy that spent one single coin,,, a dime!

A person shooting a standard chambered rifle will never see a differance. It's a 6BR! Those shooting a custom 6BR will never worry about which one it was, the load the same way and go thru the same development for case prep and load development and would use the same brass.

 

[doninreno]

You are way over thinking this! Look at it the same way you do two people, one talking about it cost 10 cents, and one taking about it only costing a dime. That's about the same thing! One used 5 pennies and a Nicole to get the results the guy that spent one single coin,,, a dime!

A person shooting a standard chambered rifle will never see a difference. It's a 6BR! Those shooting a custom 6BR will never worry about which one it was, the load the same way and go thru the same development for case prep and load development and would use the same brass.

Thinking is good for the brain...with a little thought comes KNOWLEDGE, whether anyone else considers it worth the effort or no, you'd be surprised what you learn along the way that is incidental to the quest. You are preaching to the choir here...been doing this stuff for about 60 years now, but the CURIOSITY is still there. I guess when I hit the point that there is no longer any curiosity, I'll just be dead. I guess you didn't understand it or maybe you didn't read my earlier post where I said that "appears to me that the best way to go is to get things as "custom" sized to MY chamber (which I'm going to from here on out call a "6mm BW WHAT") in my new barrel is to just sorta fireform EVERYTHING and then just proceed to go shoot that and be Alfred E Newman (What, ME worry??)" .

Also, my niece is named Nicole, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't trade 5 pennies and her for anything at all.....maybe a NICKLE and 5 pennies would work, but nowadays probably more like a dollar bill and 5 pennies.

 

[wildcatter]

Thinking is good for the brain...with a little thought comes KNOWLEDGE, whether anyone else considers it worth the effort or no, you'd be surprised what you learn along the way that is incidental to the quest. You are preaching to the choir here...been doing this stuff for about 60 years now, but the CURIOSITY is still there. I guess when I hit the point that there is no longer any curiosity, I'll just be dead. I guess you didn't understand it or maybe you didn't read my earlier post where I said that "appears to me that the best way to go is to get things as "custom" sized to MY chamber (which I'm going to from here on out call a "6mm BW WHAT") in my new barrel is to just sorta fireform EVERYTHING and then just proceed to go shoot that and be Alfred E Newman (What, ME worry??)" .

Also, my niece is named Nicole, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't trade 5 pennies and her for anything at all.....maybe a NICKLE and 5 pennies would work, but nowadays probably more like a dollar bill and 5 pennies.

Well in that case let me help you, I've found after nearly 70 years now the difference is the the 6mm BR is the abbreviation, for 6mm BR Norma,,

 

[Mastershot]

Don,

If you were referring to the match you and I shot out the center of the target, I was shooting my .308win. F-TR. with 169gr. Sierra MatchKings.

The Norma looks to have a .241 longer COAL (almost one bullet diameter) and may not chamber in a Rem. cut chamber. I would think most dies (especially bushing type) probably have a long enough neck to size either case and a Rem. case should chamber in either Norma or Rem.

I"m sure I made this clear as mud for you.

Monte

I have not seen you guys out at the range for a while, What is Don building a 6br for?

 

[doninreno]

I have not seen you guys out at the range for a while, What is Don building a 6br for?

F-Open 3 X 300 at Carson...been shooting that gun there as it is fun, but the MIRAGE is terrible if shooting off of the ground and it starts to warm up and was also shooting sometimes at the Washoe Range----600 yd sometimes and once in a while at the Long Range Varmint IF there's no wind in the forecast, but the Long Range Varmint range has been totally shut down for now.. (Washoe isn't currently operating too well-----(Public line is shut down, too but it looks like that might be fixed in the future......hopefully soon! and some of the other ranges are in operation ONLY by previous agreements/reservations made last November time frame.) Shot the old barrel out so had to put a new (Bartlein) one on it and it didn't turn out like I wanted...some kind of a chamber problem (too much headspace required for my taste) leading to pulling case heads off....so this is a re-do to set things back a tad and make the chamber (headspace) more like what I want it to be. It is all put back together now so I want to go to Carson to shoot it some, but lately Carson has been a total zoo ( Particularly on weekend mornings I hear) due to Washoe being closed AND deer season approaching. We'll see, I hope!

BTW, do I know you Mastershot??