Short range police round?

[butchlambert]

Lots of ARs, but tac guys use the 308 Remingtons.

 

[john 800]

I am fan of the 308 but when I picture what a law enforcement sniper or sharpshooter would be doing I would like less recoil. Jackie suggested the 7.62x39 and it has alot going for it. One other round that comes to mind just because I have been messing with it lately is a 6.5 grendel. Low recoil, decent capacity and if they ever were in a situation where the range was a little farther out ot should be plenty there as well.
Edit: Here is an interesting one for short range, a 45acp rifle. Thoughts?

 

[David Milisock]

I am fan of the 308 but when I picture what a law enforcement sniper or sharpshooter would be doing I would like less recoil. Jackie suggested the 7.62x39 and it has alot going for it. One other round that comes to mind just because I have been messing with it lately is a 6.5 grendel. Low recoil, decent capacity and if they ever were in a situation where the range was a little farther out ot should be plenty there as well.
Edit: Here is an interesting one for short range, a 45acp rifle. Thoughts?

The 45 ACP rifle is a non starter for many reasons.

 

[284winner]

Was talking to a retired LEO yesterday about their "tactical" teams, making shots at relatively short range, very volatile situations, lots of variables and obviously one shot effectiveness very important. He was saying that the 308 was overkill but that they used it for lack of a better option.

Got me wondering- if shots are known to be relatively short range, 300 yards and in, what would be some rounds to consider?

I'm actually surprised that the 6.5 CM hasn't replaced the 308 for ERT teams in LE. Back when I was on an ERT team in the mid 90s when the .260 arrived in the Remington 700, we adopted that rifle for all our teams state wide. The 6.5 CM has all but replaced the .260 Rem nation wide. I haven't bowed to it yet because I love my .260 but many have. I can see one in my future one day.

 

[David Milisock]

In todays whiz bang world of ballistics, would’t the 308 be considered an intermediate chambering.

Heck, for the ranges that seem to be most prevalent in real world situations, the 7.62 x 39 would seem to be just right.

The 7.62x39 is certainly not a very good choice.

 

[David Milisock]

There are a number of cartridges that are ballistically superior to 308.

Ballistically superior in what way? Being superior for the job is not about being the best at any one point, it's about being good at as many points as possible within a shooters margin of error.

Quite frankly when limited to 300 yards the 308 fits the bill.

 

[kindabitey]

From my very limited knowledge, cartridge selection has very little to do with performance down range. Most probably has to do with agency access to ammo and pricing (state bid contracts). It's my understanding that some DOJ/ DHS agencies have adopted the 6.5 Creedmoor, but in very limited groups.
The 308 Win is still the go to for MIL/ LE around the country, because that's what it's been for years and they don't want to change.

 

[SKWERLZ]

I'm actually surprised that the 6.5 CM hasn't replaced the 308 for ERT teams in LE. Back when I was on an ERT team in the mid 90s when the .260 arrived in the Remington 700, we adopted that rifle for all our teams state wide. The 6.5 CM has all but replaced the .260 Rem nation wide. I haven't bowed to it yet because I love my .260 but many have. I can see one in my future one day.

Love the 260.
My Friend who was a career military sniper was pretty amazed at what it could do.

 

[joshb]

The great “old” 308 is just fine for them. If you’re suggesting that they start spending our tax dollars chasing the “newest greatest cartridge”, you get a FIRM NO from me!!!

 

[JSH]

Overkill, no such thing. Over penetration maybe.

 

[David Milisock]

First how many documented police sniper shots are taken against body armor and or window glass I know there have been a few but they are not by any means the norm…..body armor can be defeated, nobody armors the ankle or even there knees and very seldom their throat or even their pelvic girdle nobody fights with a shot to any of these places, but if your going to worry about such things then may I suggest the .450 bushmaster it won’t penetrate level 4 body armor but it will put them on their ass, it will handle commercial glass as well.

Isn't one time enough?

Look at it this way, a multi-stage, multi-cartridge competition, you have criteria and rankings. No one cartridge will perform as the best in each task, it's an aggregate of performance across each task.

The .450 Bushmaster wouldn't be good out past half a city block, quite frankly slow and big would be my last choicr. However an aggregate cartridge test with multiple criteria on a scale of 1 to 10 with a cartridge that produces scores of 6 to 8 on each task may be a reasonable choice.

The 308 has above average results on the criteria for tactical precision especially with a 300 yard limit. Over penetration surely can be a problem but bullet selection is excellent, the ability to resist the wind at those short ranges is very good, penetration on glass and armor is reasonable, accuracy is excellent, ease of training, chambered in many accurate rifle styles. Accepted as a standard for legal purposes is another advantage. This is just mention a few criteria.

 

[jackieschmidt]

A tactical rifleman needs to be prepared for the widest set of scenarios. A car windshield, commercial glass and body armor are just a few things. A 450 is useless for many scenarios in my opinion.

It would seem that bullet selection would be as important as the capacity of the cartridge pushing it.

In your opinion, what are the best bullet designs for use in the scenarios you mentioned.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

You must be easily amazed, or inexperienced.

Yep, even look at a .308 hole on paper compared to a .264 hole.

 

[284winner]

From my very limited knowledge, cartridge selection has very little to do with performance down range. Most probably has to do with agency access to ammo and pricing (state bid contracts). It's my understanding that some DOJ/ DHS agencies have adopted the 6.5 Creedmoor, but in very limited groups.
The 308 Win is still the go to for MIL/ LE around the country, because that's what it's been for years and they don't want to change.

Sometimes it's just easiest to leave alone what's not broken. For the purpose it serves, it's as good as any round out there.

 

[Hammer]

Do I hear a second for the nomination of the 45/70 in a Winchester 1886...

Not identical as to firearm or exact ballistics, but more folks have been "stopped" on this continent with this category of terminal ballistics than all others combined. Check out "one-shot stopping power" data from 1861 to 1865.

 

[Dave in WI]

Keep in mind that most departments will be firing factory ammo. Liability, etc.
They will want to purchase factory ammo suited to their particular needs. Most of us reload and don't stop to think that a dept probably won't. That will eliminate many of the "boutique" calibers.

 

[SKWERLZ]

Keep in mind that most departments will be firing factory ammo. Liability, etc.
They will want to purchase factory ammo suited to their particular needs. Most of us reload and don't stop to think that a dept probably won't. That will eliminate many of the "boutique" calibers.

Federal gold medal match 168 BTHP’s is popular but a lot of agencies are now looking into or using a load with more terminal ballistics orientated bullets.
There’s certainly appropriate 260, 6.5 CM and 7mm-08 options.
Probably 243 as well.

 

[Eagle Six]

Keep in mind that most departments will be firing factory ammo. Liability, etc.
They will want to purchase factory ammo suited to their particular needs. Most of us reload and don't stop to think that a dept probably won't. That will eliminate many of the "boutique" calibers.

And, if the box has Law Enforcement on the label, it's a shoe in for consideration to adopt it for service.

 

[David Milisock]

It would seem that bullet selection would be as important as the capacity of the cartridge pushing it.

In your opinion, what are the best bullet designs for use in the scenarios you mentioned.

I'd love to say that I have an easy answer however I do not. I can give some scenarios.

First a tactical precision shooter is a professional and good ones work very hard. Preparing for different threats requires different projectiles and it requires the shooter to map those trajectories with their rifles. Police and the military have available to them ammunition forbidden to us. Be aware of those legalities and how they affect you.

I would hope that Police tactical teams have an armor piercing round for light vehicles, a full metal jacket round for enhance penetration and an expanding round. In 30 caliber (308, which I do not own) I suggest bulletts in the 147 to 175 grain range.

In my opinion outside of 400 yards a 308 becomes problematic, I prefer an 06 with 180 to 190 grains or a 300 magnum with 208.

 

[akajun]

Our snipers use rounds tailored for accuracy and rely on tactics and policy to prevent worrying about over penetration and such

Our srt teams were issued frangible 223 and 9mm
Basically powderd metal bullets for a while but went to traditional rounds do to the frangible being problematic but idk what the problem was
They let us shoot the frangible stuff to train when the ammo shortage was in full effect
I never had a problem with it