Where do I go from here - new load development??

[Dimner]

I would play around either side of 38.5........Best of luck on your hunt.

Regards
Rick

This is what you want to do.

Other's who are looking at the smallest groups are not necessarily taking in account where the stable node will be. If you look at 38.0, 38.5, and 39.0... the each group average point of impact is stable. So take 38.5 and go +/- 0.3 gr for two increments on each side. That will give you the data on where your node is most consistent. Then test for OAL.

It's all found in this post from Eric Cortina:

Long range load development at 100 yards.

I found this target, and I think it's a perfect example of how some people might choose the wrong load because they fell in love with a group without reading the groups properly. This target was shot with my 6.5x47 Lapua and 139 gr. Lapua Scenars with VV N550 powder. At plain sight, 38.5 gr...

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[K22]

My Remington 22 250 had a 14" twist and preferred 50 grain bullets.

I obtain excellent accuracy with H380, in the 1/2 moa range using Nosler 50 BT's. The problem I encountered while hunting eastern groundhogs in temperatures 90 and above was pressure surges. I was hunting in open fields, no cover to speak of.

I thus did some load development with IMR 4064, Varget, and H4895. All shoot well, but not better than H380, once a found the optimum load. My groups and POI were more consistent over a range of temperatures using these "stick" powders.

A fellow varmint hunter suggested I try IMR 4350. I was quite skeptical since nowhere in the various publications I have does it mention this powder as an "accuracy" load for the 22 250. Nosler does have load data for it, however. So, on a whim, I tried it. I shot consistent sub 1/2 moa groups which shocked me. The downside was the optimum load only produced about 3,500 f/s out of a 26" barrel.

 

[Straightshooter1]

This is what you want to do.

Other's who are looking at the smallest groups are not necessarily taking in account where the stable node will be. If you look at 38.0, 38.5, and 39.0... the each group average point of impact is stable. So take 38.5 and go +/- 0.3 gr for two increments on each side. That will give you the data on where your node is most consistent. Then test for OAL.

What has been working well for me is to focus on the location of the average POI of the groups rather than their size. Group's average POI and their shape (like, no vertical string) is what tells me where the load is "stable". But . . . whatever the first 3 or 5 shot groups might suggest as a good accuracy node, my analysis of them must always be verified.

 

[762plinker]

You can't do better than the OCW method for finding the best powder weight.

Dan Newberry's OCW Method.

If I look at your target from that perspective, your optimum charge weight is tucked away around 38.2 . If you repeat the test in two 0.3 grain jumps around the 38.2 mark, it should prove the case. You want to powder increments to be 1% of charge weight for the OCW.

However, if you feel that the results are not reliable because of enviromentals, or if you did not allow the barrel to cool between strings,, it's best to re-shoot - you'll waste less components and get to a reliable result sooner than proceeding with a load of low confidence.

For your use case, when the weather changes, and you're on the correct OCW node, the POI won't shift.

run from this poor process component wasting joke

 

[big5ifty]

run from this poor process component wasting joke

How would you advise ?

 

[S Miller]

Some good shooting with factory rig with 14x scope. I would add to be careful of the rear bag ears contacting the grip during recoil follow thru.
Good luck with your testing and hunt.

 

[Wild Thing]

Day 2 Results:

Obviously, I didn't have time to work through everyones recommedations but I did some further testing today with H-380 and different seating depths:

@pdhntr suggested putting the H-380 back on the shelf and trying out H-4350 which he has had good success with - specifically 39.5 gains of it, so that was easy enough to test...


@Coyotefurharvester strongly suggested trying seating the bullets at an OAL of 2.375 so I loaded up a 5-shot group of that as well.

I also loaded up 5 - 4-shot loads in the range of 37.5 - 38.5 as was suggested and seated them closer to the lands - jumping .020 from the lands. That was about all I had time for today...


I have to say that @Coyotefurharvester may be on to something with the longer jump (.085") and those 5 shots produced one of the smaller groups today - .592". I will be looking closer at longer jumps tomorrow. This group is still showing some vertical, which may be me (my 75 year old eyes ain't what they used to be - especially with only 14 power magnification at 100 yards). Hopefully I will have the new scope mounted and zeroed in a couple more days.


The 5-shot group suggested by @pdhntr was slightly under an inch....which again may be me. I shot off of the bipod again today.

Most everyone was of the opinion that I would find a good powder node in the range of 37.5 - 38.5, but results today with a different seating depth (jump of .020")... on today's target doesn't look a whole lot different than it did yesterday??? Or does it? Your interpretations?


The best groups on Day 1 were at 39.5 and 40.0 grains and @coldboreshot suggested that I should take a closer look at that range with smaller powder increments and 4 or 5-shot groups. I didn't get there today but this will be my first area of concentration tomorrow - maybe with seating depths closer to SAAMI max OAL of 2.350 (a jump of 0.110"). I plan to load up a few 4-5 shot groups to see if there is some merit to that powder charge.

Thanks again to everyone for trying to help me out. Some of these scattered groups, no doubt, are on me as I just need some higher magnification optics to see the target better. Hopefully we will have the new scope mounted soon.

 

[Wild Thing]

Forgot to mention that I started the day with a clean bore and chamber. I fired 2 rounds to foul the barrel and then shot 2 - 5- round groups and 1 - 4-round group (16 total) and decided it might be wise to clean the bore midway through the day rather than to shoot 32 rounds without cleaning it so I cleaned the bore after the 37.5 grain group. I had planned on shooting a couple more rounds to foul the bore but I forgot and went ahead and fired the next 4 - shot group at 37.8 grains....which just happened to be the best group of the day - .365" (4 shots).

 

[Straightshooter1]

Day 2 Results:

Obviously, I didn't have time to work through everyones recommedations but I did some further testing today with H-380 and different seating depths:

@pdhntr suggested putting the H-380 back on the shelf and trying out H-4350 which he has had good success with - specifically 39.5 gains of it, so that was easy enough to test...
View attachment 1444827

@Coyotefurharvester strongly suggested trying seating the bullets at an OAL of 2.375 so I loaded up a 5-shot group of that as well.

I also loaded up 5 - 4-shot loads in the range of 37.5 - 38.5 as was suggested and seated them closer to the lands - jumping .020 from the lands. That was about all I had time for today...
View attachment 1444828

I have to say that @Coyotefurharvester may be on to something with the longer jump (.085") and those 5 shots produced one of the smaller groups today - .592". I will be looking closer at longer jumps tomorrow. This group is still showing some vertical, which may be me (my 75 year old eyes ain't what they used to be - especially with only 14 power magnification at 100 yards). Hopefully I will have the new scope mounted and zeroed in a couple more days.
View attachment 1444829

The 5-shot group suggested by @pdhntr was slightly under an inch....which again may be me. I shot off of the bipod again today.

Most everyone was of the opinion that I would find a good powder node in the range of 37.5 - 38.5, but results today with a different seating depth (jump of .020")... on today's target doesn't look a whole lot different than it did yesterday??? Or does it? Your interpretations?
View attachment 1444830

The best groups on Day 1 were at 39.5 and 40.0 grains and @coldboreshot suggested that I should take a closer look at that range with smaller powder increments and 4 or 5-shot groups. I didn't get there today but this will be my first area of concentration tomorrow - maybe with seating depths closer to SAAMI max OAL of 2.350 (a jump of 0.110"). I plan to load up a few 4-5 shot groups to see if there is some merit to that powder charge.

Thanks again to everyone for trying to help me out. Some of these scattered groups, no doubt, are on me as I just need some higher magnification optics to see the target better. Hopefully we will have the new scope mounted soon.

Yeah, I like that 37.8 best of them (good average POI location, good group size and good group shape) and they fit in that range I though you should try. In fact, it's right where I would have guessed on that first posed target. More magnification might even tighten things up there a little. Now, what I'd do, if this was me, is load some more up with that charge and play with seating depths with variations of .003.

 

[fkimble@charter.net]

Looks like almost all your groups are double grouping. Each has two shots together and 3 shots close together?? Could be the lower power scope/big crosshairs.
I do that when shooting at black dots. I much prefer a white dot(round or square) with a black border. This allows even thick crosshairs to be centered visually. Once the black croshairs are on a black spot it's hard to tell how centered it is. And I use different size white areas depending on crosshair size an distance.

Frank

 

[Dgd6mm]

Wild Thing, rifle setup, wind indicators, scope, and yes eyes needed in good and repeatable load development.
A little movement or missed pickup or letoff in wind goes a long way in how groups change, even at 100 yards.

I would play around either side of 38.5........Best of luck on your hunt.

Regards
Rick

I believe Rick is on to something.

 

[Fclassfool]

More shooting less cleaning

 

[Wild Thing]

More shooting less cleaning

LOL - Now you tell me. Cleaned it last night...and twice today

 

[Wild Thing]

Have it dialed in closed enough for now - Minute of Prairie Dog anyway. I want to thank all of you again for your help and suggestions, many of which proved to be spot-on. Those of you who suggested that I concentrate on the area of 37.8 grains and longer jumps hit the nail on the head. I know this isn't "F-Class Accuracy" but it is good enough for me for now with an inexpensive factory rifle, with the only mod being that I replaced the synthetic stock with a Stocky stock - otherwise it is as is.

I have to say...it was brutal out there on my range this week. Highs in the mid-80's to mid-90's which is really warm for Upper Michigan weather. Mosquitos were also much worse than normal...


My shooting bench is in the sun for the most part. I actually had to have my wife come out and hold an umbrella over me and the scope so I could see at times...and I can't tell you how hot my ammo got sitting on the bench next to me - almost too hot to handle. I will definitely keep that in mind when I get to S. Dakota on my prairie dog hunt. I already purchased a 10' X 10' shade canopy so I can keep somewhat cool.


Notes from today's shooting...


Today's target. Tested powder charges in the 39-40 grain range with the same seating depth of 2.375 OAL. None of the 4-shot groups were impressive so I didn't bother shooting the last group.

However, after seeing some nicer groups and similar POI's with the 37.8 - 38.0 grain range and with the longer seating depth of 2.375 (a jump of .085") I decided to test that area as suggested by many of you.


I figured that I should be happy with 1/2 MOA under the circumstances and that is right where I sit with a load of 37.8 - 38.0 grains of H-380 seated at around 2.375 or jumping .085" so that is what I will be loading up for my hunt. I could probably fine tune it a little more but we are leaving early Monday morning so it is time to get loading.

These are some of the groups with loads in that range:




Can only attach 6 files so ... to be continued...

 

[Wild Thing]

5 shots


3 shots


4 shots


Like I said - close enough for my prairie dog hunt. Time now to fine tune the load for my new (to me) Savage 12 VLP in .204 cal.

Thanks again for helping me out.

Frank

BTW - My new scope and rings were delivered yesterday - Vortex Viper HS-T, 6-24X50 with MOA reticle. If my picatinny rail shows up tomorrow I may have time to get it mounted and zeroed before I leave.

 

[Wild Thing]

Almost forgot. I used up a lot of powder and bullets doing the load development so I sent my wife to the sporting goods store to pick up some more powder today. She went into the store and told the owner she was there to pick up some H-380 for her husband. An "Old Timer" standing nearby heard this and told my wife.....drum roll.....get this...."Tell your husband that H-380 is the worst powder in the world. It is too temperature sensitive".

True story and I thought that those of you who don't like H-380 would especially appreciate it.

 

[Gary in MD]

Almost forgot. I used up a lot of powder and bullets doing the load development so I sent my wife to the sporting goods store to pick up some more powder today. She went into the store and told the owner she was there to pick up some H-380 for her husband. An "Old Timer" standing nearby heard this and told my wife.....drum roll.....get this...."Tell your husband that H-380 is the worst powder in the world. It is too temperature sensitive".

True story and I thought that those of you who don't like H-380 would especially appreciate it.

LOL
Leaving ammo loaded with ball powders like H380 in the hot sun has always been something to avoid. Most reloading manuals specifically say to avoid it…
Good luck or your trip

 

[YEW PLUCKER]

inspite of other comments. the original standard was 1/100 of case vol for a step...which would be .4 so .5 AINT THAT FAR OFF. round robin is a nice way of wasting money.
39.5 and 37.5 seem to have the smallest vert..i would retest there, closer to the lands\
what power is this scope and any wind flags ?

I agree. You have a whole lotta powder in that case. Increments of .5 grain should get you were you need to be. You can always fine tune down to your last .2 grains. I remember reading in The Houston Warehouse Project how .2 of a grain did not make a bit of difference, in group size, and that was when shooting BR size cartridges like the BRs and PPCs.

I would get the best group I could by studying charge weights, then play with seating depth. I know, I am preaching to the choir here (or more precisely to the Priesthood).

H380 is a very stable and reliable propellant. I have used a bunch of it myself. It is relatively slow burning, so charge weight shouldn't be that critical until your loads get close to max pressures.

I looks like you already have a shooter!

 

[searcher]

If you will be happy being able to hit the PD's out to 300-400 yards, I'd just re-shoot some groups in that 39-40 grn range. If they still prove to be the best, I'd opt for the lower end of the good-shooting powder range (39-39.5) unless you are doing your load development in hot weather. It likely will be hot where you go, and you want your load to be approximately 1/2 grain lower in weight than where your most accurate range is when you are testing. The heat will raise your pressures -and your velocity. What kind of trigger do you have? If it is not capable of adjusting down to about two pounds or less - you would be well-served to yank the trigger and get a Jewell HVR or other good trigger. It will allow you to close those groups up more than you might think if you are currently running a heavier trigger. That higher-powered glass will help too. Take a few sand bags to put on your shooting table to anchor it down and not allow it to move when the wind starts blowing. On that seating depth, a lot of light varmint bullets do pretty well jumping and taking closer to the lands can be very counterproductive, contrary to the opinion of many. I hope you find a bunch of those dogs!

 

[Wild Thing]

If you will be happy being able to hit the PD's out to 300-400 yards, I'd just re-shoot some groups in that 39-40 grn range. If they still prove to be the best, I'd opt for the lower end of the good-shooting powder range (39-39.5) unless you are doing your load development in hot weather. It likely will be hot where you go, and you want your load to be approximately 1/2 grain lower in weight than where your most accurate range is when you are testing. The heat will raise your pressures -and your velocity. What kind of trigger do you have? If it is not capable of adjusting down to about two pounds or less - you would be well-served to yank the trigger and get a Jewell HVR or other good trigger. It will allow you to close those groups up more than you might think if you are currently running a heavier trigger. That higher-powered glass will help too. Take a few sand bags to put on your shooting table to anchor it down and not allow it to move when the wind starts blowing. On that seating depth, a lot of light varmint bullets do pretty well jumping and taking closer to the lands can be very counterproductive, contrary to the opinion of many. I hope you find a bunch of those dogs!

Already loaded up some ammo yesterday for this rifle so I won't be doing any more testing on it until after the Prairie Dog trip. I did get the new scope mounted on it last night so I just need to go out today and zero it.

It has the stock Rem 700 trigger on it but I tweaked it down to 2.0# several years ago and it has a nice crisp pull. I have installed aftermarket triggers on a couple of other rifles (Timney & Triggertech) but I am really happy with the stock trigger on this 22-250.

Had not thought about taking extra sand bags to stabilize the shooting bench out west. Will definitely take some along. Thanks for the tip.

I am guessing the weather here while working up my load (mid 80's to mid 90's) has been very similar to what we will have in S.D. this week so I can't imagine seeing any pressure differences? Time will tell I guess.