Sorting bullets

[greyspider56]

I just watched an f class video with him sorting bullet lengths. Does this really make a difference or is it just another gadget?

 

[dstoenner]

Bc is directly proportional to length (OAL) of bullet. So sorting on length gives you bands of consistent BC. Removes some of your vertical

This is what Brian Lytz recommends

David

 

[Big Mc]

I just watched an f class video with him sorting bullet lengths. Does this really make a difference or is it just another gadget?

It depends, do you want to win or just shoot ?? Tommy Mc

 

[mikecr]

Bc is directly proportional to length (OAL) of bullet.

No it isn't.
There is no calculating nor comparing of BC from OAL alone.
Each separate attribute of a bullet (within OAL) has it's own drag contribution.

 

[dstoenner]

No it isn't.
There is no calculating nor comparing of BC from OAL alone.
Each separate attribute of a bullet (within OAL) has it's own drag contribution.

I do stand corrected. From Bryan Litz's book "modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting", VOL 2, page 114 last bullet point says
* If you length sort bullets and shoot them in batches of common length, you will enjoy a substantial improvement in uniformity, though you won't be increasing or decreasing the average BC.

This is in the conclusions of the chapter on pointing and trimming. I had taken that uniformity to be a tighter band of BC but I can see that it isn't quite what I thought it was saying.

But if you are shooting 1000 yards, this is a freebee that can give you more uniform bullet flight.

David

 

[RegionRat]

Some of the rational to length sorting, is to be able to run the pointing die on the tip, which does change the BC when compared to not pointing at all.

There is a workmanship limit with pointing. If you try to squash too much material (longer ones) you can bulge the profile. In this context, the purpose of the length sort is driven by the material limits for pointing.

So in an indirect way, yes the length sort affects the pointing die which then affects the BC.

ETA: there could be a different debate on what happens next, i.e., does the batch still need to stay sorted by lengths after pointing? Or, since their tips are uniformed, can they all fly the same?

 

[greyspider56]

I just watched an f class video with him sorting bullet lengths. Does this really make a difference or is it just another gadget?

Thanks to everyone that replied

 

[JFrank]

I do stand corrected. From Bryan Litz's book "modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting", VOL 2, page 114 last bullet point says
* If you length sort bullets and shoot them in batches of common length, you will enjoy a substantial improvement in uniformity, though you won't be increasing or decreasing the average BC.

This is in the conclusions of the chapter on pointing and trimming. I had taken that uniformity to be a tighter band of BC but I can see that it isn't quite what I thought it was saying.

But if you are shooting 1000 yards, this is a freebee that can give you more uniform bullet flight.

David

You can sort bullets three different ways and still have crappy groups at a thousand yards. At least you’ll feel better going in.

 

[dhenry132]

Sorting and shoot in like measurements really helps
Most important is the nut behind the trigger.
Just can not spend your way to the top

 

[rwj]

There is a workmanship limit with pointing. If you try to squash too much material (longer ones) you can bulge the profile. In this context, the purpose of the length sort is driven by the material limits for pointing.

For those that trim/point (and I have), what limit do you set on bulging of the bullet’s pressure ring/body? Mind is 0.0005 inches.

 

[longbow]

You may find that one bullet that is way off on the ogive...that could be lighter in weight.that one bullet might make A difference best to flick it out and use for a flowler......

 

[RegionRat]

For those that trim/point (and I have), what limit do you set on bulging of the bullet’s pressure ring/body? Mind is 0.0005 inches.

When and if I start playing with a new bullet that I am not familiar with, I play this game.

When I learn how much it takes to make the profile bulge at all, I back off and that determines the width of a sort bin.

I will admit I try to be ginger with this and so far when playing with factory bullets like Sierra and Berger, it doesn't seem to cause me too much trouble since those are pretty good quality bullets.

For snickers and giggles I have tried this on some lesser brands, and then I remember why I go back to my favorites.....

ETA: The big difference one can make in this discussion is one I often forget to mention and that is meplat trim versus no trim. If I can get away with just sort and point, I will.

 

[dcali]

You don't need a gadget. Just calipers, which you already have.

To put a finer point on why it matters, it's consistency of BC. If a slightly better shot to shot variance matters for what you're doing, it matters. 20 thous of length will make a measurable difference on the target at long range. A small one, but a real one.

I wrote a ballistics simulator to investigate this sort of thing to help people figure out what factors matter most for the shooting they like to do:

Hit Probability Calculator

A free hit probability calculator for long range shooting.

bisonballistics.com

(And to nitpick, BC is not exactly directly proportional to OAL. It is related to OAL, and will increase with OAL, but it's not a simple linear relationship.)

 

[dcali]

I do stand corrected. From Bryan Litz's book "modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting", VOL 2, page 114 last bullet point says
* If you length sort bullets and shoot them in batches of common length, you will enjoy a substantial improvement in uniformity, though you won't be increasing or decreasing the average BC.

This is in the conclusions of the chapter on pointing and trimming. I had taken that uniformity to be a tighter band of BC but I can see that it isn't quite what I thought it was saying.

But if you are shooting 1000 yards, this is a freebee that can give you more uniform bullet flight.

David

Byran is being a little sloppy with his language. If you sort bullets into two piles, one longer and one shorter, the longer one will have a slightly higher average BC. That's how you get the uniformity. The average of the whole unsorted lot will not change, but each sorted batch will be slightly different.

 

[RegionRat]

Agree. You almost have to spend some time either making or watching match bullets being made.

There is a relationship between the length of the jacket material and how the tips finish out, and it requires discipline to keep the variability to a minimum.

Materials, dies, machines, can all have a tolerance and some are changing as the machines run or due to wear.

When all is said and done, among the results are the points and lengths. You can see how the diameters and roughness of the points and the overall length of the bullets is affected by several parameters in the batch runs. It isn't hard to understand, but it is hard (expensive) to maintain the discipline to keep those tips the same.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I just watched an f class video with him sorting bullet lengths. Does this really make a difference or is it just another gadget?

It can make a difference, but the shooter and rifle setup have to be capable of shooting the difference. Otherwise, it will be lost in the noise. The precision shooting game is all about understanding limiting (largest) sources of error. The quality/consistency/uniformity of the bullets one starts out with, the innate precision of the rifle setup and the shooter, and the distance at which one is shooting are all variables in the bullet sorting equation.

Assuming these variables are all amenable to discerning the effect of sorting bullets, it's also important to note that we're talking about a pretty small effect. Providing incontrovertible evidence that sorting bullets is of benefit may take a long time with rigorously documented groups and/or scores in matches. Even then, it may not be an "in your face" difference or improvement. For that reason, many shooters simply make the assumption that sorting bullets will be of benefit and proceed to do it. The good news is that unless it is done very badly, sorting bullets isn't going to hurt anything, even if it doesn't generate the obvious benefit someone was hoping for. Thus, the main cost is time and effort. Sorting bullets isn't necessarilly a huge black hole with respect to the effort and time involved, so it's not too difficult to sort a few and determine whether you think it is actually of benefit in your specific setup.