neck size only ?
- Thread starter rebs
- Start date
I "always" anneal and then full-length size ... but I shoot precision stuff at long distances, not .223 volume shooting. One thing I don't get is that if you're sizing anyway ... why not full-length vs. neck-only.
This. All my 223 goes back to standard sizing. Even if I know it would be bolt gun only, I run the same process. I've only had like 5 separations in 30 years.
expedience: no lube to futz with. wipe neck, size, and go.
divingin
Gold $$ Contributor
Easier to clean up the brass after lubing just the neck rather than the entire case. Neck sizing can be done with just an arbor press and a die (no bench mount needed.)
I'm not advocating one over the other; I neck size for convenience; FL size when needed. I am not, however, a competitive shooter; just someone who likes trying to get small groups.
The down side to neck sizing only, when you start to get sticky bolt lift, it's already too late. Avoid the problem in the front end by full length resizing. The only time the that risk of neck sizing only is there for me is when I'm looking for additional accuracy. And even then, I'm not sure it's worth it.
Cleaning lube of cases isn't that big of a deal, come to terms and make it part of the process.
BTW, I used to neck size only in a few of my varmint guns, I haven't done it in many years and never plan of going back
Cleaning lube of cases isn't that big of a deal, come to terms and make it part of the process.
BTW, I used to neck size only in a few of my varmint guns, I haven't done it in many years and never plan of going back
Bill Norris
Back in the Day
In a video by Erik Cortina he states neck sizing will not increase accuracy due to the fact that the brass shoulder is moving in small increments outward until it finally has to be F/L sized. I guess testing for our own procedures and rifles will tell us whether it works for us.
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
Than you need to develop a case prep system that creates and maintains consistent brass. Length, diameter, thickness case to case variations will not help accuracy, how much variation is tolerable is a much deeper subject(probably between you and the checkbook).
jepp2
Gold $$ Contributor
Beside the advantages/disadvantages already listed, I use a LCD on many rifles I load for. However, I always size the body also (normally with a body die). The advantage the LCD offers is that it doesn't undersize the case neck during sizing like most FL sizing dies do. It also results in case necks that have 0.001" TIR.
Nope
I doubt that you'll be able to prove one is superior to the other. However, you can shoot 20 rounds prepared both ways and shoot 5 round groups on 8 targets. You calculate the mean radius for each group and the POI offset. You can then overlay the groups and compare the two methods.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Rebs, keep in mind...
Many of the experienced shooter/loaders using the LCD, own several custom mandrels to have fine control of the neck, and we also use a body die in a separate step to control shoulder datum and body diameters.
Also, the older LCD versions have a longer collet that covers the whole neck but their recent change was to shorten the collet to allow a "flare" on the case mouth which many of us hate because our trim/chamfer process conflicts with that change. Look at the end of the collet to see what kind you have.
Many of us predate the Type S bushing dies, and we learned to prep brass that sucked compared to what is available in this age. I'm not saying a rookie shouldn't try a LCD, but that you should also try a LCD along with learning all the other methods of more conventional brass prep first.
Set a goal of knowing which tools and methods to apply in different circumstances, but those skills come after you learn each context very well before taking on the next lessons.
If you are going to use the LCD before you learn to use a more conventional method, then I suggest you get a body die and also think about getting mandrels that allow you to make changes when the stock mandrel isn't giving the best neck tension. BTW, a type S bushing die without the bushing makes a good body die but then can still be used with a bushing so you don't need both if you are on a budget.
With 223, use good virgin higher quality brass for study, and use the rough range brass when you don't care and give yourself time to learn to turn the junk into gold as time passes. Getting assorted junk brass to shoot less than 0.5 MOA is a good way to frustrate a beginner.
The Redding incremental shell holders allow shoulder length control while you get to bottom out the die and they are far less technique sensitive, assuming a typical single stage press. Every student I put on those has successfully controlled their bump and FL sizing. They are as easy as it gets.
Also keep in mind...
It is a fair idea for a rookie to start at 300 yards with 223. This way, they can master topics like gun handling and loading without the added difficulty of distance and wind or while using much more expensive materials.
However, most (ETA; accomplished) folks start as little kids and learn to shoot prone-sling where the loading goal would be to keep the groups roughly under 1 MOA. By the time they grow up and decide to try F-Class, they have absorbed more than a few topics on both shooting and loading. When they try loading their first times, they are happy when their first efforts stay inside 1 MOA.
However, if the game changes to keeping those groups well under 0.5 MOA from a rest or bipod in F-Class, then it moves up the schedule on needing to learn to load at an above average level. Getting any rifle capable of shooting F-Class to perform is a merging of both the right materials and above average loading technique.
So, I agree with using a good 223 to learn. It is economical and practical.
But now I am preaching... that one should take this in stages.
First shooting groups under 1 MOA at 100, then 200, then 300, etc. Give yourself a chance to get a solid foundation. Too many folks get ahead of themselves, pull out a credit card, and then spend a bunch of wasted money thinking they are ready to run and become a competitive shooter at distance before they learn to crawl or walk. Prodigies happen in math, music, art, sports, shooting, etc., but most folks are not a prodigy.
Good bench methods need to be learned early, and bipod or rest becomes part of load development. Start out with range flags or wind flags as soon as possible, you are going to want to learn to read wind and use every opportunity to practice.
That said, I also think you will either need a club/mentor or to slow down and be realistic about learning to reload the same way one should take shooting in stages.
First, give yourself a goal of 1 MOA or better while you gather materials, recipes, tools, and skills. Just don't freak out when using low quality materials, which is the same as saying use good bullets and brass when you care about the results.
You will find that on your own it takes much longer to learn to get well under 0.5 MOA which is required to make master or high master in F-Class. In a club setting with a mentor, the learning curve is faster, but it is still a learning curve that demands some bench and rage time before you discover the keys to keeping 20 shot strings in the 10 ring.
You have asked some good honest questions lately, so keep at it and don't get discouraged.
Many of the experienced shooter/loaders using the LCD, own several custom mandrels to have fine control of the neck, and we also use a body die in a separate step to control shoulder datum and body diameters.
Also, the older LCD versions have a longer collet that covers the whole neck but their recent change was to shorten the collet to allow a "flare" on the case mouth which many of us hate because our trim/chamfer process conflicts with that change. Look at the end of the collet to see what kind you have.
Many of us predate the Type S bushing dies, and we learned to prep brass that sucked compared to what is available in this age. I'm not saying a rookie shouldn't try a LCD, but that you should also try a LCD along with learning all the other methods of more conventional brass prep first.
Set a goal of knowing which tools and methods to apply in different circumstances, but those skills come after you learn each context very well before taking on the next lessons.
If you are going to use the LCD before you learn to use a more conventional method, then I suggest you get a body die and also think about getting mandrels that allow you to make changes when the stock mandrel isn't giving the best neck tension. BTW, a type S bushing die without the bushing makes a good body die but then can still be used with a bushing so you don't need both if you are on a budget.
With 223, use good virgin higher quality brass for study, and use the rough range brass when you don't care and give yourself time to learn to turn the junk into gold as time passes. Getting assorted junk brass to shoot less than 0.5 MOA is a good way to frustrate a beginner.
The Redding incremental shell holders allow shoulder length control while you get to bottom out the die and they are far less technique sensitive, assuming a typical single stage press. Every student I put on those has successfully controlled their bump and FL sizing. They are as easy as it gets.
Also keep in mind...
It is a fair idea for a rookie to start at 300 yards with 223. This way, they can master topics like gun handling and loading without the added difficulty of distance and wind or while using much more expensive materials.
However, most (ETA; accomplished) folks start as little kids and learn to shoot prone-sling where the loading goal would be to keep the groups roughly under 1 MOA. By the time they grow up and decide to try F-Class, they have absorbed more than a few topics on both shooting and loading. When they try loading their first times, they are happy when their first efforts stay inside 1 MOA.
However, if the game changes to keeping those groups well under 0.5 MOA from a rest or bipod in F-Class, then it moves up the schedule on needing to learn to load at an above average level. Getting any rifle capable of shooting F-Class to perform is a merging of both the right materials and above average loading technique.
So, I agree with using a good 223 to learn. It is economical and practical.
But now I am preaching... that one should take this in stages.
First shooting groups under 1 MOA at 100, then 200, then 300, etc. Give yourself a chance to get a solid foundation. Too many folks get ahead of themselves, pull out a credit card, and then spend a bunch of wasted money thinking they are ready to run and become a competitive shooter at distance before they learn to crawl or walk. Prodigies happen in math, music, art, sports, shooting, etc., but most folks are not a prodigy.
Good bench methods need to be learned early, and bipod or rest becomes part of load development. Start out with range flags or wind flags as soon as possible, you are going to want to learn to read wind and use every opportunity to practice.
That said, I also think you will either need a club/mentor or to slow down and be realistic about learning to reload the same way one should take shooting in stages.
First, give yourself a goal of 1 MOA or better while you gather materials, recipes, tools, and skills. Just don't freak out when using low quality materials, which is the same as saying use good bullets and brass when you care about the results.
You will find that on your own it takes much longer to learn to get well under 0.5 MOA which is required to make master or high master in F-Class. In a club setting with a mentor, the learning curve is faster, but it is still a learning curve that demands some bench and rage time before you discover the keys to keeping 20 shot strings in the 10 ring.
You have asked some good honest questions lately, so keep at it and don't get discouraged.
In a f class competition I absolutely wouldn’t just neck size
It’s only benefit is accommodating lazy reloaders.
It’s no benefit for accuracy.
I use LEE collet dies exclusively, but I also use a REDDING body to bump the shoulder back, and anneal my brass every time when fired, I use to neck size only for my bolt 223rem, bolt gun, but this was a factory rifle, and I got excellent accuracy neck sizing only, but IMO if your running a custom chambered barrel? it my require body sizing after a few firings, I have not shot my 26'' Savage HB rifle in about 10yrs or more now, other interests, but my other custom-built rifles I generally bump the shoulders 2 to 3k and neck size with the LEE collet die, and the results are outstanding!!!!
The only catch is how hard you are pushing your brass. I've got heaps loaded 20+ times but only pushing 50 grainers with a medium load and although there is a tiny lug bind when chambering they all chamber just fine. Be mindful to keep a tiny bit of lube on the locking lugs to prevent galling and just shoot.
I should add I don't anneal either so to rely on the hardening brass to help limit brass growth with these mild loads.
Rem Model 7
Hornady brass
50gr Ballistic tips.
YMMV
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