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neck size only ?

From my personal experience the 223 bolt action is the only round that has defied the no neck sizing mantra. For my Fclass rifle I used the Lee collet alone with excellent performance. To convince myself I measured the headspace on 400+ rounds and found excellent uniformity, better than FL sizing. Yes I anneal every time as well to achieve consistent neck tension.
 
neck size with the LCD for one of my 223's and get great results.But I'm not pushing it very hard,so I don't have to do much with the shoulder.I set the headspace pretty tight when I put the barrel on and for this rifle everything worked out ok.I like the way the die works to keep runout low and I don't have to turn necks or use separate mandrels.I'm a firm believer that some kind of expander has to be used unless case necks are very consistent.

That covers many of the key issues. I too neck-sized-only for many years with an LCD largely because handloading was a dining room activity for me and until the family grew up and moved out I didn't have space for a conventional mounted press and mostly used the Lee Hand Press.

Also, and crucially, I was loading for Historic military rifles and kept pressures and MVs very low. The LCD alone worked fine in this situation with multiple loadings and no need to 'bump' shoulders. With slack chambers and cartridges prone to case separation like 303 British in Lee action rifles, the LCD preserved case life too as well as giving a better case to chamber fit. (This was long before the days of the Stoney-Point / Hornady 'headspace' case comparators and we understood little about how vital shoulder position is. FL size and we did it by the maker's instructions with the shellholder hard against the bottom of the die body at full press operation and in many cases created seriously excess headspace.)

As soon as I started loading for modern rifles for higher precision applications and higher pressures, all previous practice went out the window. Shoulders on many cartridge designs move forwards very quickly under full pressures so even a second firing with a NS-only case can see longitudinally tight brass in the chamber. Moreover, as with everything else in rifles, chamber pressures and its effects on the brass vary considerably shot to shot, so the consistency of brass to chamber fit goes out of the window, one case a crush fit; the next an easy one. Body sizing, or shoulder bumping alone (as with the Forster Bushing-Bump dies) is essential if anything like normal pressures are involved never mind high ones.

These days, I still use the LCD (or at any rate older LCDs which as some have pointed out are superior for our purposes) but always allied to either FL body sizing, or in a couple of cartridges, the Forster shoulder bump die (minus the neck bushing) and knock shoulders back by one, at most two, thou'. I've found that in 223 and 308 gunsmith cut 'minimum SAAMI' match chambers, shoulder bump alone is fine and have gone through several barrel lives worth of loadings without ever having to size the case-body itself down.

Finally, even going back to the days when it was 'received wisdom' that NS alone gave better precision (which few if any precision shooters still believe nowadays), it was recommended that all brass to be used in factory rifles should be FL sized. This wasn't simply a reliability issue for deerhunters (let alone those facing elephants and other lethal species), but because a generation or more ago many factory rifles had out of true chambers and the FLS method gave better results on the target. That is far less of an issue (in fact not an issue at in all bar the occasional rogue example) in these days of CNC machining and far superior tooling and quality control with much higher factory standards.
 
@Laurie
Are you a fan of the Forster shoulder bump die. I was gong to get one then decided that at some point ( maybe at the same time as the shoulder) I would have to size the .200 line and then need another die. What's your take on this. TKS
 
@Laurie
Are you a fan of the Forster shoulder bump die. I was gong to get one then decided that at some point ( maybe at the same time as the shoulder) I would have to size the .200 line and then need another die. What's your take on this. TKS
I love the Forster bushing neck/shoulder die. Even if you don't regularly plan on doing neck only, I also use it to size the neck of virgin brass to the size I want it.
 
@Laurie
Are you a fan of the Forster shoulder bump die.

Yes, very much so. I went through several 308 FTR rifle barrels and only ever B-B sized the cases despite some pretty 'hot' loadings. Always Lapua Palma SP brass, but running maximum pressures. The brass lot would be kept for one barrel/chamber only and new brass bought on rebarreling, although I'd very occasionally FL size and switch cases between rifles.

Likewise 223 including when running some really 'hairy' pressures with 90s. In this case, I'd load the [Lapua] brass three times, FLS it and switch it to my #2 rifle and carry on with the B-B die alone afterwards. The brass would eventually be scrapped for loose primer pockets having only had a single FL size in maybe eight or nine loadings. That would be B-B die alone with a slightly undersize bushing followed by a run over a mandrel.

I still use my 223 B-B die, but without a neck-bushing installed so that it just bumps the shoulder marginally, followed by an LCD on the neck. Results so far are very good in rather milder loads than I'd have used in my serious F/TR competition days, and some batches of cases are now on their 4th loading without any issues or problems. As the shoulder bump just needs the slightest smear of Imperial Sizing Wax and the LCD no lubricant, it makes for a quick and clean method.

You can see how well this rifle and the ammo so prepared shoots in a series of write-ups here using various powders and the 77gn Sierra MK to find UK-available alternatives to the now lost to us Hodgdon VarGet and H4895.

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3811

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3856

(These cover extruded VarGet alternatives. Reach-Out 8 with H4895 and the first four alternatives to it will be up online within the next few weeks.)
 
Does it size the .200 line if needed. TKS


No, if my understanding of the definition is correct, that's way down the case-body? The B-B die only touches the shoulder and its junction with the top of the main case-body. After sizing, you have a thin polished line around the junction only.

So, if you overload any brass and need to reduce anything below that point, this form of die is no good.
 
My 223 load is a mild dose of IMR8208XBR and either a 73 grain Berger or a 69 grain SMK or a TMK.It only runs about 2850 FPS,with great velocity spread and SD numbers.The best 5 shot 100 yard group out of it is .103,and some of the better groups running in the upper 1's and low 2's.If I run Varget and turn it up a little,it turns around 3050 and the groups go into the 3's and 4's.I'm using brass that nobody will say is any good,Remington commercial brass that's had the flash holes deburred.I have tried some better brass in that particular rifle,and the Remington shoots the best out of it.For most everything else,I use Lapua.
My 22-250 is a totally different setup.I use CFE-223 to run 52 grain A-Max's at 3900 FPS.I use a Hornady shoulder bump die along with a Lee Collet Die to size the necks.I can use a bushing in the Hornady die if I want,but the results are a little better with the LCD.Forget neck sizing that one,two loadings and the bolt gets hard to close,and accuracy suffers.
I just bought a 6.5 Creedmoor,and I have been getting great results with the new Forster benchrest full length die.It has a very high expander that is so smooth that I can't tell it's even there,and the brass is very consistent.Along with a Wilson seater,this rifle is showing great results for a production rifle.It's a Bergara HMR that I bought myself for Christmas in 2022,and it's staying just below half an inch at 100 yards for 5 shots.I had it to 600 yards this past Sunday and it held on good despite the wind,which was gusty and unpredictable.
For my 280 Ackley Improved,I use a Redding type S full length bushing die with a mandrel.It's a heavy barrel(Shilen Select Match)on a trued older M700 action.It prefers Sierra 160 grain Tipped Match Kings,which it puts in the 2's and 3's,the best it's done was 5 into .194 at 100 yards.
My 308's are usually full length sized with an RCBS Competition die,but if I'm feeling lazy,sometimes I'll use a Wilson bushing neck die that sizes about a third of the neck.One is a very loose Remington factory chamber and the other is a Shilen barrel that I chambered with a Clymer Match reamer.
All of my custom barrels were fitted and headspaced by me using shim stock on the go gauge to get the headspace to within .001.The bolts will close smoothly on the gauge,but a .002 piece of shim stock on the head of the gauge will not close at all.I take a lot of time trying to get them done this way,and a good quality full length die is almost always a perfect fit when set up with a solid fit to the shell holder.Different cartridges and different rifles respond to different reloading techniques.I've been most pleased with the simple Forster Benchrest full length die.It sizes the neck to the same tension as a ,289 bushing,and the shoulder dimension stays very consistent.Two key words-simple and consistent-are high on my list.There will be more of these dies on my bench in the future.I've only been reloading for a short period of time,and I'm still very much in the learning stage as far as my loading work goes.The amount of information out there is quite a bit more than I had in 1979 when I put that that first round in my old .243,prayed and hit the trigger.One important piece of information that 44 years and many thousands of rounds downrange have taught me is that I really don't know all that much.My shooting partner is older and far more experienced than I am,and he has what I think is a good philosophy.He doesn't let on like he knows much at all,and he says he'll help anyone who has an open mind and is willing to learn,but most of the young uns already know everything,so he just listens and makes his mind up as to whether they're knowledgeable or if they let their ego do the talking.
 
It prefers Sierra 160 grain Tipped Match Kings,which it puts in the 2's and 3's,the best it's done was 5 into .194 at 100 yards.

I too am a fan of the 7mm 160gn TMK, or was as I no longer shoot sevens. It served me exceptionally well for around 10 years in a 7mm-08 short/mid-range F-Class rifle based on a Savage 12 PTA action.
 
I have told this before, some yrs back when I started to realize using FL dies weren't going to achieve the level of uniformity I wanted I called Redding, I spoke to 1 of their reps about their bushings dies, I told him I was using a LCD, and was getting very small runout error of 1k or less, asked if their dies could do any better? his response was you need to stick with that! and I have and no need for me to look at anything else, I get the same results on everything I load for using the LCD, even my gas guns, until a die can be made any better with runout and be as consistent as to what I'm using, which I doubt, I see no need for myself to go and retool, being a machinist myself, I look for the best results I can achieve, I deal with micron units of measure every day in very small units of measure, I try to make things consistent as possible when loading, :cool:
 
I get what you are saying, which is why I limit neck sizing to only two firings. Ultimately, people need to do what works best for them and their rifle.

I have to lube regardless, because I don't simply run it through the neck die, and I have no experience with the Lee die. I run it through a Forster neck bushing die to size the neck and bump the shoulder, then I run the case through a neck expander mandrel die. I dip the neck in dry lube, knock off excess powder with a pencil or something before running it through the mandrel.

When I give advice to friends just starting out I tell them the mandrel expander is a must, imo, for consistent neck tension. It pushes the inconsistencies to the outside of the case and doesn't risk messing with the shoulder bump like an expander ball can.

I only go through this trouble for precision rifle. My gas guns get an Rcbs short base full length sizing and done.
Do you realy think small high points get pushed to the outside by a mandrel? Neck tension is not measured in thou , The actual grip on the bullet is determined by hardness and the dimension change both. Measuring just makes them all the same if you have the same starting hardness on each neck. Annealing should give you the same starting hardness. The actual grip is called hoop stress.
 
Do you realy think small high points get pushed to the outside by a mandrel?

I, for one, don't "think" so . . . I know so, as I've measured the difference before and after running a mandrel through my case necks. It helps too having the necks properly annealed so that's there's not too much spring back. And I will say that it doesn't actually make the inside of the neck absolutely perfect, but it is a huge improvement. When turning necks, it also helps go get those "high points" pushed to the outside to get a more uniform neck thickness.
 
I do all that! turn necks and anneal, the only necks I do not turn is for my gas guns, I also run my necks in the LCD at 60degs and after the first pull, so the neck gets 3 rotations in the sizing die, you can feel the neck getting squeezed in the die, this doesn't require a lot of pressure, IMO this helps make the neck more uniform, theirs a guy on youtube name fortune cookie 45 who has a video on this method, you should check it out!
 
Do you realy think small high points get pushed to the outside by a mandrel? Neck tension is not measured in thou , The actual grip on the bullet is determined by hardness and the dimension change both. Measuring just makes them all the same if you have the same starting hardness on each neck. Annealing should give you the same starting hardness. The actual grip is called hoop stress.
Yes, I do think so. As mentioned by @Straightshooter1, it won't make the inside of the neck perfect, but it is a big improvement. It will also ensure better concentricity, which I've proven simply by comparing a die/expander ball vs die/mandrel on a concentricity gauge.
 
I do all that! turn necks and anneal, the only necks I do not turn is for my gas guns, I also run my necks in the LCD at 60degs and after the first pull, so the neck gets 3 rotations in the sizing die, you can feel the neck getting squeezed in the die, this doesn't require a lot of pressure, IMO this helps make the neck more uniform, theirs a guy on youtube name fortune cookie 45 who has a video on this method, you should check it out!
Do you actually need to turn the necks with the LCD? I've wanted to try one, but just haven't had a reason to buy it. But it also uses the mandrel approach with the addition of the collet to push the neck against the mandrel. Theoretically, it should make the brass thickness uniform without the need to turn the necks.

I may pick one of these up to do some comparison and get some measurements. I've always wondered how well it works.
 
No, but I like to take anything out of the equation that will hurt my accuracy, like neck thickness, IMO unforming the necks, I only turn my necks to remove the hi spots and that's it! this gives a consistent diameter on the outside neck wall thickness, the mandrel will take care of the rest, unless your cases need inside turning, for example, I took my 6.5Grendel out a few weeks ago, brand new Hornady cases, I only ran them thru a expander mandrel to uniform the inside of the case mouths, no turning, I loaded 10 rounds 5 sighters 5 to see for accuracy, I shot a 7/8'' group @208yds with my new test load, from the second 5 rounds, now will the LCD do that you bet ya!
 
I forgot to add this is form a Sanders 6.5Grendel Beast, it a 24'' 1&8 twist Heavy barrel, AR side charging upper, running 27.1gns of AR Comp, @2545fps, with 120gn SMK's,
 
Do you actually need to turn the necks with the LCD? I've wanted to try one, but just haven't had a reason to buy it. But it also uses the mandrel approach with the addition of the collet to push the neck against the mandrel. Theoretically, it should make the brass thickness uniform without the need to turn the necks.
That very question crossed my mind some time ago, and as usual, I had to find out for myself. :rolleyes: :D

What I found was that yes, the LCD did help mitigate the variance in neck thickness on my .308 cases I was testing (more so with the annealed brass than those that weren't annealed). Apparently the high pressure of squeezing action of the collet for sizing the neck not only lengthens the neck but also causes enough flow to spread the "high spot(s)" out, making the neck thickness just a little bit more uniform. But it doesn't doe near as good a job of uniforming the neck thickness as turning the necks does. Often, when just skimming the necks when turning them, you can easily see where one side of the neck is thicker than on the opposite side. Turning the necks gets all of the neck very even in thickness. The LCD will squeeze some of that thicker side away, but there's not near enough flow of the brass neck to make the thickness uniform all the way around.

Even though the LCD doesn't do as well and turning necks to get uniform neck thickness, the LCD does provide similar benefit as running mandrels through the neck to get a more uniform interior dimension for better seating runout.
 

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