NRA Mid-Range Prone -sighters rule

[Stumpy1]

So, I know that this topic has been hashed out before, but...
I have a question regarding sighting shots in Mid-Range prone.
MY understanding is that unlimited sighting shots are only allowed at distances of 600 yards and greater (20 shot match), and the 800 yard portion of a Palma match, and of course at 1000 yards.

Some are arguing that you can have unlimited sighting shots at 300 yards (F-Class), but I don’t see that in the rules. I am reading the rule as ‘two sighters will be optional in course of fire ‘f’, meaning there wouldn’t have to have ANY sighters if so desired, not that we can just flaunt the rule and have unlimited sighters at the shorter distances.

Specifically, the match is a 300/500/600 mid-range prone with convertible sighting shots (2 at each yardline) specified in the match bulletin. This would be a registered match.

COURSE OF FIRE:
SIGHTING SHOTS: ALL MATCHES WILL FEATURE 2 CONVERTIBLE SIGHTING SHOTS
MATCH #1: 300 yard slow fire. 20 rounds for record, time limit 22 minutes.
MATCH #2: 500 yard slow fire. 20 rounds for record, time limit 22 minutes.
MATCH #3: 600 yard slow fire. 20 rounds for record, time limit 22 minutes.
MATCH #4: Grand Aggregate of Matches 1- 3.

I have a note in to Aaron Farmer, and will post his response, but thought I would hit the collective wisdom of the forum and see what you all think.

Frank
(the relevant (I think) rule from the 2023 rulebook is below)

​

---

Unlimited sighting shots shall be fired and recorded in courses of fire described in Rule 17.5(d).
Two sighters will be optional in course of fire (f), and two sighters shall be fired and recorded in each stage of all other listed courses of fire. Team matches may be fired without sighters.

Range Target Shots Course

(a) 300 yds MR-63/wMR-63FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone

(b) 500 yds MR-65/wMR-65FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone

(c) 600 yds MR-1/wMR-1FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone

(d) 1000 yds LR/wLRFC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone

(e) F-Class Palma Course (45 shots)
800 yds LR/wLRFC 15 15 shots slow fire, prone
900 yds LF/wLRFC 15 15 shots slow fire, prone
1000 yds LR/wLRFC 15 15 shots slow fire, prone

(f) F-Class Mid Range Prone Course (60 shots)
300 yds MR-63/wMR-63FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone
500 yds MR-65/wMR-65FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone
600 yds <R-1/wMR-1FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone

 

[F Class John]

When the match is all 2 sighters as you said it was, there might be a 'no target' blow off period to foul guns but otherwise it's straight up two sighters and NO OTHER shots are allowed and definitely not unlimited since it's specifically written as a 2 sighter match. You see this all the time in pair fired matches. It's important to know if there will be a blow off period, otherwise you need to make sure you foul your gun ahead of time.

 

[Walt Krafft]

The match director can do as he pleases when he writes the program. The NRA will approve whatever he writes.

 

[Rtheurer]

Its been accepted in the past by the NRA in Approved and Registered matches if the Match Program says Unlimited sighting shots and it gets approved, Then your good to go.
If the program reads two convertible sighting shots... well... there ya go..Two.

 

[mgdietrich]

As others have said, it is up to the match director and how the match program is written. For 600 and in I wish we stayed at 2 only, but I get why some have gone to unlimited.

 

[Dkk37058]

To me it doesn’t matter 2 sighter shots or 20 there is a block time of 25 minutes to get sighter and score shots down range. If you run out of time it’ll cost you 10 points per shot that you don’t get on target when you go for record.

 

[hockeyref]

We originally ran unlimited sighters. Damn near killed a couple older shooters pulling the target for a guy that ran about 50 total shots down range in his 30 minutes in 95 degree heat. That was quickly amended to 10 sighters max and has been further reduced to 5.

 

[HillBillyPirate]

We originally ran unlimited sighters. Damn near killed a couple older shooters pulling the target for a guy that ran about 50 total shots down range in his 30 minutes in 95 degree heat. That was quickly amended to 10 sighters max and has been further reduced to 5.

This!! We do two at Whitehorse. June-August unlimited sightets would just be too much for some people in the pits.

 

[Ned Ludd]

This seems to me like yet another attempt to create a problem that doesn't exist.

Who cares how many sighters are actually authorized in a Match Bulletin, as long as the number is the same for everyone? Who cares how many sighters someone else actually takes? It is common to see a sight-in format of unlimited, two, and two. The reason for this is simply so that shooters can foul their barrel properly prior to shooting for record in the first match of the day. It does not provide any advantage or disadvantage to any competitor, nor does it lengthen a match to any degree worth talking about.

It's absolutely ludicrous to force shooters to show up at a match early, go to a different range (i.e. 100 yd range vs 600 yd range), unpack their sh*t, shoot a few rounds, then pack it all up and head back to the range where the match is being held, all just to foul the barrel. Or even worse, to force someone to have to make a separate trip to the range in the days preceding a match just to foul the barrel. If someone wants to run a match with only two sighters for each of the 3 matches, fine. Just extend the participants some courtesy and allow them the opportunity for a [no-target] blowoff period before record fire begins. Problem solved.

BTW - if someone is not capable of fulfilling the duties required during pit service, they either shouldn't be participating, or should get someone to fill in that is able to do it properly. It's really that simple. Someone's advanced age or poor health condition is no reason whatsoever to tell another competitor how they should be shooting a match. Get real people. This kind of thinking is just ridiculous.

 

[Stumpy1]

To clarify; the problem, and the reason for the question is 'how many sighters are authorized by the NRA rules'. In my mind, it just isn't clear, and I don't want someone to shoot a record and have it be nullified for not following "the rules".

I did hear back from Aaron, and I don't think it is clear in his mind either. As we saw in the other thread, some (many/most?) of the rules could probably stand a re-write for clarity.

A 'no target' blowoff sounds good, until you have e-targets that don't go down fully into the pits or are fully visible at all times...

Frank

 

[Albany Mountain]

This seems to me like yet another attempt to create a problem that doesn't exist.

Who cares how many sighters are actually authorized in a Match Bulletin, as long as the number is the same for everyone? Who cares how many sighters someone else actually takes? It is common to see a sight-in format of unlimited, two, and two. The reason for this is simply so that shooters can foul their barrel properly prior to shooting for record in the first match of the day. It does not provide any advantage or disadvantage to any competitor, nor does it lengthen a match to any degree worth talking about.

It's absolutely ludicrous to force shooters to show up at a match early, go to a different range (i.e. 100 yd range vs 600 yd range), unpack their sh*t, shoot a few rounds, then pack it all up and head back to the range where the match is being held, all just to foul the barrel. Or even worse, to force someone to have to make a separate trip to the range in the days preceding a match just to foul the barrel. If someone wants to run a match with only two sighters for each of the 3 matches, fine. Just extend the participants some courtesy and allow them the opportunity for a [no-target] blowoff period before record fire begins. Problem solved.

BTW - if someone is not capable of fulfilling the duties required during pit service, they either shouldn't be participating, or should get someone to fill in that is able to do it properly. It's really that simple. Someone's advanced age or poor health condition is no reason whatsoever to tell another competitor how they should be shooting a match. Get real people. This kind of thinking is just ridiculous.

The same good shooters will win regardless of number of sighting shots.

 

[Acyr]

To clarify; the problem, and the reason for the question is 'how many sighters are authorized by the NRA rules'. In my mind, it just isn't clear, and I don't want someone to shoot a record and have it be nullified for not following "the rules".

I did hear back from Aaron, and I don't think it is clear in his mind either. As we saw in the other thread, some (many/most?) of the rules could probably stand a re-write for clarity.

A 'no target' blowoff sounds good, until you have e-targets that don't go down fully into the pits or are fully visible at all times...

Frank

I agree it can be confusing.
I have shot 600-yard matches with unlimited sighters for all 3 relays.
Unlimited sighters on my first relay, 2 sighters for the remining 2 relays.
Blow off period on my first relay followed by 2 sighters for all 3 relays.
Match directors can dictate how the match is shot to some degree. So, format may change from match to match as well as range to range.

 

[Jeff Porter]

I posted about this awhile back and my beef was with guys using unlimited sighters for load development testing. I ended up saying to myself - as long as they clear the line at the end of the time limit prescribed by the match bulletin they can do what they want. We all(should) read the bulletin before the match and know what to expect.

 

[mgdietrich]

Sighters aren't for blowoff/fouling. Shoot a few between targets, over the top, etc. But, it is whatever the match program says. One that has been used locally is "first two shots on target" are sighters, then for record. Essentially allowing competitors to foul ahead of going for sighters. Just another way to do it.

To me, doing more 2 sighter matches puts more expectation on the competitor to be ready to go, have solid zero's etc. Be able to make wind calls in 2 sighters instead of "fire for effect".....

 

[chkunz]

This seems to me like yet another attempt to create a problem that doesn't exist.

Who cares how many sighters are actually authorized in a Match Bulletin, as long as the number is the same for everyone? Who cares how many sighters someone else actually takes? It is common to see a sight-in format of unlimited, two, and two. The reason for this is simply so that shooters can foul their barrel properly prior to shooting for record in the first match of the day. It does not provide any advantage or disadvantage to any competitor, nor does it lengthen a match to any degree worth talking about.

It's absolutely ludicrous to force shooters to show up at a match early, go to a different range (i.e. 100 yd range vs 600 yd range), unpack their sh*t, shoot a few rounds, then pack it all up and head back to the range where the match is being held, all just to foul the barrel. Or even worse, to force someone to have to make a separate trip to the range in the days preceding a match just to foul the barrel. If someone wants to run a match with only two sighters for each of the 3 matches, fine. Just extend the participants some courtesy and allow them the opportunity for a [no-target] blowoff period before record fire begins. Problem solved.

BTW - if someone is not capable of fulfilling the duties required during pit service, they either shouldn't be participating, or should get someone to fill in that is able to do it properly. It's really that simple. Someone's advanced age or poor health condition is no reason whatsoever to tell another competitor how they should be shooting a match. Get real people. This kind of thinking is just ridiculous.

I agree in general but blow off shots or load development shots are not sighters. If a competitor plans to do that they should get agreement from their pitt pullers and pit boss beforehand.

 

[Lone Hunter]

Don’t see the gripe with unlimited sighters as long as the competitor is done shooting by his allotted time. I like to shoot between 2-5 rounds to get my barrel warmed up and establish my zero on the first relay. After that generally 2 shots as I have my zero. Doesn’t matter to me as long as they are done by their time limit. Also, this is all the shooting some guys will get at distance because their clubs have only 100-300 yard ranges. I see this keeps getting brought up more and more often so there must be a rub some where. Let ‘‘em shoot.

 

[USMCDOC]

So, I know that this topic has been hashed out before, but...
I have a question regarding sighting shots in Mid-Range prone.
MY understanding is that unlimited sighting shots are only allowed at distances of 600 yards and greater (20 shot match), and the 800 yard portion of a Palma match, and of course at 1000 yards.

Some are arguing that you can have unlimited sighting shots at 300 yards (F-Class), but I don’t see that in the rules. I am reading the rule as ‘two sighters will be optional in course of fire ‘f’, meaning there wouldn’t have to have ANY sighters if so desired, not that we can just flaunt the rule and have unlimited sighters at the shorter distances.

Specifically, the match is a 300/500/600 mid-range prone with convertible sighting shots (2 at each yardline) specified in the match bulletin. This would be a registered match.

COURSE OF FIRE:
SIGHTING SHOTS: ALL MATCHES WILL FEATURE 2 CONVERTIBLE SIGHTING SHOTS
MATCH #1: 300 yard slow fire. 20 rounds for record, time limit 22 minutes.
MATCH #2: 500 yard slow fire. 20 rounds for record, time limit 22 minutes.
MATCH #3: 600 yard slow fire. 20 rounds for record, time limit 22 minutes.
MATCH #4: Grand Aggregate of Matches 1- 3.

I have a note in to Aaron Farmer, and will post his response, but thought I would hit the collective wisdom of the forum and see what you all think.

Frank
(the relevant (I think) rule from the 2023 rulebook is below)

​

---

Unlimited sighting shots shall be fired and recorded in courses of fire described in Rule 17.5(d).
Two sighters will be optional in course of fire (f), and two sighters shall be fired and recorded in each stage of all other listed courses of fire. Team matches may be fired without sighters.

Range Target Shots Course

(a) 300 yds MR-63/wMR-63FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone

(b) 500 yds MR-65/wMR-65FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone

(c) 600 yds MR-1/wMR-1FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone

(d) 1000 yds LR/wLRFC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone

(e) F-Class Palma Course (45 shots)
800 yds LR/wLRFC 15 15 shots slow fire, prone
900 yds LF/wLRFC 15 15 shots slow fire, prone
1000 yds LR/wLRFC 15 15 shots slow fire, prone

(f) F-Class Mid Range Prone Course (60 shots)
300 yds MR-63/wMR-63FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone
500 yds MR-65/wMR-65FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone
600 yds <R-1/wMR-1FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone

If the "sighters" are "convertable".. then it appears to me.. that you are shooting a Fullbore match..

 

[David Mayfield]

Having ran mid and long range matches for years, here's what I see as the problem with too many shots prior to going for record.
If there are pulled targets it is most disrespectful to the target puller for someone to shoot more rounds than necessary to get somewhat centered up. If you can’t do that in the first several shots you need to hone your craft somewhere besides at a match. Asking a puller to pull excessive shots is not fair to them, after all they are doing is hard work.
When using etargets it real easy for your score keeper to lose concentration on scoring if you are jacking around with many extra shots and then you’ll want to whine about the scorer.
Keep up this type of behavior and you will receive poor target and scoring service.

 

[chkunz]

Having ran mid and long range matches for years, here's what I see as the problem with too many shots prior to going for record.
If there are pulled targets it is most disrespectful to the target puller for someone to shoot more rounds than necessary to get somewhat centered up. If you can’t do that in the first several shots you need to hone your craft somewhere besides at a match. Asking a puller to pull excessive shots is not fair to them, after all they are doing is hard work.
When using etargets it real easy for your score keeper to lose concentration on scoring if you are jacking around with many extra shots and then you’ll want to whine about the scorer.
Keep up this type of behavior and you will receive poor target and scoring service.

I agree and your experience as a Match Director adds a lot to the perspective. Deviating too far from the normal match format invites unforeseen problems. If there is an interest in load development at full range that is another opportunity for a different range event but will take leadership which is in short supply.

 

[hockeyref]

This seems to me like yet another attempt to create a problem that doesn't exist.

Who cares how many sighters are actually authorized in a Match Bulletin, as long as the number is the same for everyone? Who cares how many sighters someone else actually takes? It is common to see a sight-in format of unlimited, two, and two. The reason for this is simply so that shooters can foul their barrel properly prior to shooting for record in the first match of the day. It does not provide any advantage or disadvantage to any competitor, nor does it lengthen a match to any degree worth talking about.

It's absolutely ludicrous to force shooters to show up at a match early, go to a different range (i.e. 100 yd range vs 600 yd range), unpack their sh*t, shoot a few rounds, then pack it all up and head back to the range where the match is being held, all just to foul the barrel. Or even worse, to force someone to have to make a separate trip to the range in the days preceding a match just to foul the barrel. If someone wants to run a match with only two sighters for each of the 3 matches, fine. Just extend the participants some courtesy and allow them the opportunity for a [no-target] blowoff period before record fire begins. Problem solved.

BTW - if someone is not capable of fulfilling the duties required during pit service, they either shouldn't be participating, or should get someone to fill in that is able to do it properly. It's really that simple. Someone's advanced age or poor health condition is no reason whatsoever to tell another competitor how they should be shooting a match. Get real people. This kind of thinking is just ridiculous.

Ned,
I don’t recall but I believe that you shot x-course where got 2 sighters per string and leg matches where you got no sighters and had to go to the line knowing your zero, corrrect? If thats the case how is it ludicrous to expect shooters to show up ready to go?

As for your comment about age and pit duties, these two guys would regularly give you 5-7 second turn around. There were occasions that they cycled it fast enough that I had asked my scorer if they had pulled it. Problem was they went about giving excellent pit service figuring that the shooter would do what most did and fired 5 or maybe 10 sighters….. not 25…. After they received 30 shots on target i would not have said a word as match director if they slowed down pit service - but they didn’t and didn’t complain about it either. Worst part about it is that the shooter that did it to them proved incapable of being part of a 2 shooter pit crew capable of a 25 second turn around. His pit Partner told him to sit the freak down and pulled it by himself.