Militarys new ammo

[Adam in WI]

The ejector flow was 60 thou or more : O.

Sixty thousandths? .060"? That would be more brass protruding than the rim is thick. Are you quite sure? I would think that much brass in the ejector hole would fix that piece of brass to the bolt...

 

[dantiff2]

Sixty thousandths? .060"? That would be more brass protruding than the rim is thick. Are you quite sure? I would think that much brass in the ejector hole would fix that piece of brass to the bolt...

Honest to god! I'm telling you. I have never seen something like that EVER before. It was no five or ten thou bump you'd normally see. This was a clear protrusion of that magnitude! Some were twenty and some were sixty or more! : O I don't own a cell phone or I would have the pictures to entertain everyone

Add: There was even brass flow going into the cut out area of the bolt face where the m16 style extractor sits.
Dan

 

[Brians356]

Honest to god! I'm telling you. I have never seen something like that EVER before. It was no five or ten thou bump you'd normally see. This was a clear protrusion of that magnitude! Some were twenty and some were sixty or more! : O I don't own a cell phone or I would have the pictures to entertain everyone

Add: There was even brass flow going into the cut out area of the bolt face where the m16 style extractor sits.
Dan

I don't suppose you jammed a few cases into your jeans pocket, did you? 1 pic = 1k words.

(At our County range it's verboten to pick up any spent case off the deck, unless it just left your gun. Tricky to enforce, but they try. One of several reasons I boycott that range.)
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[dantiff2]

I don't suppose you jammed a few cases into your jeans pocket, did you? 1 pic = 1k words.

(At our County range it's verboten to pick up any spent case off the deck, unless it just left your gun. Tricky to enforce, but they try. One of several reasons I boycott that range.)
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No, I'm sorry. This was several years ago. I was just in shock and my first thoughts were HOLY SH*T!!! OH my god! Knew it was all trashed and I don't own a 308, so left on the ground. (I pick up my own brass with bag catchers. I'm not cleaning up for everyone else. Unless it's crimped Lake City 5.56) ; ) Then left it at that. Probably should have brought one home just to put in my collection.
Dan

 

[Brians356]

I am with Dave on this. I have played with the cartridge and know for a fact you need pressure measuring equipment to know what pressure you are loading to. If you load using the pressure signs we are used to, you will go way past 80k. The cartridge case is no longer the weak link, what is? And don't assume the case is reloadable, sizing the head is a b-----.

Shouldn't this play out something like this: SAAMI publishes specs; component vendors publish load data after considerable testing. Neither may occur in this instance, but that would be a novel outcome I think.
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[Walt Krafft]

Shouldn't this play out something like this: SAAMI publishes specs; component vendors publish load data after considerable testing. Neither may occur in this instance, but that would be a novel outcome I think.
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SAAMI has published specs. How many reloaders ignore the max loads the component vendors publish?

 

[Brians356]

SAAMI has published specs. How many reloaders ignore the max loads the component vendors publish?

A rhetorical question, but not an immaterial one. I misinterpreted your remarks to suggest that an 80k pressure cartridge is well beyond the pale for safe handloading. I suppose component vendors will discover whether that's true and consider publication accordingly. The availability of loadable cases (fresh or resized) seems like the main obstacle.
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[Infrequent Shooter]

In 1945 the British Army developed the 280 British. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_British

In 1948 they developed the EM1. https://www.forgottenweapons.com/rifles/em1/
which was later that year became the EM2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EM-2_rifle

It was destined to be the NATO cartridge, but the US were determined to have their cartridge (7.62x51), which was developed by Winchester in 1952 as the .308 Win https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester and adopted as the NATO cartridge 7.62x51 in 1954. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62×51mm_NATO

It seems that we are coming full circle to what should have been.

The FN FAL would have been 10x better in its original configuration.

 

[Brians356]

I see the SAAMI cartridge/chamber drawing is conventional WRT case dimensions, as if the case could be formed from a brass cup. However, the drawing includes this warning:



It's not unlikely that conventional brass cases will be marketed, and component vendors will then publish analogous load data which do not exceed 65,000 psi.

PS if (when?) MilSpec ammunition and/or cases become commercially available, it then becomes a question of whether vendors would publish +P load data (assuming MilSpec ammo in a strong conventional bolt action would be safe - I'm not sure.) The matter of resizing fired MilSpec cases is another matter.
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[DaveTooley]

Shouldn't this play out something like this: SAAMI publishes specs; component vendors publish load data after considerable testing. Neither may occur in this instance, but that would be a novel outcome I think.
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I seriously doubt the steel head cases will ever see the civilian market. Too much liability. They're kind of a one trick pony. All brass maybe.

 

[SKWERLZ]

Wonder how many people are loading close to 80k psi anyway and not realizing it

With some of the speeds people brag about in forums or complaining about brass life quite a few.

 

[SKWERLZ]

I seriously doubt the steel head cases will ever see the civilian market. Too much liability. They're kind of a one trick pony. All brass maybe.

They have to be hell on extractors as well.

 

[Brians356]

I seriously doubt the steel head cases will ever see the civilian market. Too much liability. They're kind of a one trick pony. All brass maybe.

I think you're spot on there. So which current cartridge will a brass 277 Fury, limited to 65k psi, be ballistically closest to? Would we really prosper from the arrival of a deflated 277 Fury?
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[drop_point]

Never gave us body armor in Nam. Gave us M16's A1's that jammed and no cleaning kit. Little sobs got right back up. To use their AKs And SKS's . At least you could stick your finger in a 7.62 hole. 556 pc of crap. Sorry if I sound a little bitter. IMHO "we the people" Rob

The biggest problem was that Uncle Sam wanted to use the stockpiles of powder they had already acquired to load 7.62 NATO with. They were warned it was the improper powder for the rifle. When exposed to humidity, the residue from the burning powder caused a precipitate in the gas tube, reducing the weapon's ability to cycle.

I would wholeheartedly disagree, and so would many warfighters, that the 5.56 NATO is a "pc of crap". In fact, there are many that are not excited about the change.

 

[dantiff2]

I think you're spot on there. So which current cartridge will a brass 277 Fury, limited to 65k psi, be ballistically closest to? Would we really prosper from the arrival of a deflated 277 Fury?
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Post #54 and 55 answers that.

 

[dantiff2]

With some of the speeds people brag about in forums or complaining about brass life quite a few.

If you listen to the pod cast posted in post #47, starting around the 55 minute mark- they get real informative about pressure and the signs vs velocity. Worth a listen! details such as hard bolt lift is 70,000+ psi : O

 

[David Milisock]

The biggest problem was that Uncle Sam wanted to use the stockpiles of powder they had already acquired to load 7.62 NATO with. They were warned it was the improper powder for the rifle. When exposed to humidity, the residue from the burning powder caused a precipitate in the gas tube, reducing the weapon's ability to cycle.

I would wholeheartedly disagree, and so would many warfighters, that the 5.56 NATO is a "pc of crap". In fact, there are many that are not excited about the change.

A great many things get said but most require a grain (or more than a grain) of salt.

During the Normandy invasion a fellow scaling a cliff took an 8MM Mauser through the side, he thought the fellow behind him hit him with his bayonet. He continued to fight the entire day before realizing he had been hit.

A fellow I shot with at a club, he was older than me, I and everyone figured because of his age he saw it fail in Korea. He hated the M1 Carbine, it was shit! Years later I find out that he had never served in any combat operations, had in fact never left Germany and had no experience with the M1 Carbine except range experience. I used it on 3 insertions and had, I wouldn't call them good experiances but it served me well and I have lived well past my date of sale.

The Stoner style rifle and the cartridge 5.56 have served reliably for 45 years since the problems were resolved. I carried it and the CAR15. I highly recommend that, if you're wearing the wrong uniform, you need to stay well outside of 600 yards of me and my A2.

The M16 had issues because of Robert Macnama being an asshole. People talk shit because they're assholes. The latter has been that way forever.

 

[goodbadugly]

Between nov 3 '67 thru dec 1 '67 in the central highlands at Ben Het, hill 875 there sure were no 600 meter shots. They were in your face. You could smell them. Then onto firebase 16, Ngok Kamleat, got ambushed by over 300 .NVA. using B-40 rockets. Lost 6 choppers. I hated the (mattel)-16! I loved the BAR. They couldnt hide behind the trees. Then at Dak To we really got our asses kicked. The smell when you have to sleep with the corpses's is something you never forget. Long range shots with the A2 is do able, But Ill get a shot back with the BAR. See who gets back up. RLTW SFC Rob 1/5 1st cav

 

[David Milisock]

Between nov 3 '67 thru dec 1 '67 in the central highlands at Ben Het, hill 875 there sure were no 600 meter shots. They were in your face. You could smell them. Then onto firebase 16, Ngok Kamleat, got ambushed by over 300 .NVA. using B-40 rockets. Lost 6 choppers. I hated the (mattel)-16! I loved the BAR. They couldnt hide behind the trees. Then at Dak To we really got our asses kicked. The smell when you have to sleep with the corpses's is something you never forget. Long range shots with the A2 is do able, But Ill get a shot back with the BAR. See who gets back up. RLTW SFC Rob 1/5 1st cav

I was 7 years later than you, I had different experiences, it was way out there, (200+ yards) or from the end of the muzzle to 100 yards. Smaller operations with less support in varied environments. A BAR or full auto M14 wasn't worth the weight for us and in close with multiple directions of fire too much possibility of hitting friendly's. I carried an M2 Carbine in MA1 configuration 3 times in a jungle environment as my secondary weapon and firepower and maneuvering was very good. Later the CAR 15 several times and it served well but a bit more reach but good function. I've had occasions to use the M16A1 and later the A2 both served well but as I'm 6'1" with orangutan arms I preferred the A2.

I find the new choice of Army rifle and cartridge to be one that in my opinion may because of weight and recoil require too much training, be too complicated in the field and lack the ability to be as useful in general conditions. At 16 pounds it gives me pause.

I currently own 2 M1 Carbines an AR15A2 in 5,56 and an AR15 M4E in 6MM ARC. I got a deal on a Springfield M1A but sold it as it didn't add anything I needed. I bought a dangerous game rifle instead.

I always was impressed by troops in long term deployment as they had to stay sharp 24/7 for long periods of time. That's tough work. It's one thing to deploy and know you're going to fight but that it's for ia short time, quite another to be 360 days and counting and never know when the fights coming.

People always assume that the only place the U.S. military was operating from 63 to 75 was Vietnam. It's a big world and we go everywhere.

 

[Brians356]

So which current cartridge will a brass 277 Fury, limited to 65k psi, be ballistically closest to?

A plain brass 277 Fury is essentially just an improved (less body taper, steeper shoulder) 27-308 wildcat. Loaded to full potential it will likely yield close to factory 6.8 Western performance.
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