Jan 2023 NRA Highpower RuleBook

[ronsatspokane]

I'm not arguing for or against rules. A lot of this nonsense is why I shoot TR. But the rules are pretty clear that bags have to be relatively soft. A well tracking rifle can be done with soft bags. Maybe not "return to battery" tracking, but close to it.

All this aside, I don't think this matters at all. Benchrest guys have known for ages that overly hard rests will not do you any favors.

Edit: All they're doing with these "clarifications" is muddying the waters. Reminds me of Bill Clinton's famous "That depends on what the definition of 'is' is." What's a bag? What's "positive"? Is felt a bag? Is a side bag a bag? What does "supported by" mean? Is the side of a one piece bag a bag? If a roller can't roll, is it still a roller? What if it's made out of felt? It's silly.

Aside from the fact that Epistemology destroyed logical philosophical thought (IMO), I am in 100 percent agreement, it depends on what the definition of 'is' is. I'm not arguing in favor of additional rules. Quite the opposite. I'm trying to point out how absurd this roller ruling is and how far it could be taken given the possible interpretations of existing rules. The NRA seems to want to take F Class into the realm of Epistemology. Perhaps they should spend a decade defining their terms before establishing ignorant and illogical rules. The rest of us can go on shooting while they ponder the universe of definitions. Perhaps they will even discover their own pronouns in the process.

I still want to get to the root of it however. Someone or something precipitated this. So whose feelings got hurt when they got beaten by someone using side rollers?

 

[ronsatspokane]

Yes, that is my contention according to NRA's definition. "Incomplete" returning to the precise point of aim for the prior shot, is currently "not" prohibited. What NRA's intention is? Thats anyone guess. I don't think they even know.

Good to know. So we could conceivably construct a mechanism by which the rifle would be returned to within a quarter inch of battery and that would be allowed under NRA rules?

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Since the NRA didn't include a catch-all of "if not specifically allowed by these rules..." The answer is yes!

We all agree the rules are ridiculous. Why are you getting your blood pressure up over this? The word battery doesn't even appear in the rulebook. The rule has to do with returning to the precise point of aim. If your rifle tracks that well that you never disturb it with or without rollers; Congratulations! You've been focusing on the wrong things.

None of this changes the fact that the NRA specifically prohibited the use of rollers because they were legal until the rule change, and someone thought they were a bad idea to allow.

Honestly, I don't care where the NRA goes with F-class. I've noped out of the whole sport.

 

[Taildrag15X]

You read something into it that is not there. The world "fully" is not used. That it could given the length and construction of the RAD or that it does assist in a return to battery should not be in question. One cannot ignore Newton on this subject. Rollers do not assist. It is not like they are powered by some magic that counters the recoil of the rifle and physically assists in bringing it back into battery.

"Rollers do not assist. It is not like they are powered by some magic that counters the recoil of the rifle and physically assists in bringing it back into battery".

They are a mechanical means and not a bag, doesn't matter what they do, don't do, or what you think they are, no mechanical means is fairly simple to understand.

 

[ronsatspokane]

"Rollers do not assist. It is not like they are powered by some magic that counters the recoil of the rifle and physically assists in bringing it back into battery".

They are a mechanical means and not a bag, doesn't matter what they do, don't do, or what you think they are, no mechanical means is fairly simple to understand.

Ah, that clarifies things. So mechanical mechanisms are not allowed. That means that any dials, knobs or joy sticks which mechanically aim the rifle would be against the NRA rules. And it goes without question, one would presume, that RAD's which soften the blow for our more delicate shooters and assist in return to battery would also be in violation of NRA rules. Is that correct?

 

[sdean]

Ah, that clarifies things. So mechanical mechanisms are not allowed. That means that any dials, knobs or joy sticks which mechanically aim the rifle would be against the NRA rules. And it goes without question, one would presume, that RAD's which soften the blow for our more delicate shooters and assist in return to battery would also be in violation of NRA rules. Is that correct?

Y'all sure can suck the fun out of competing. Just put the bag back on your rest and quit reading between the lines.

 

[Killick]

Thank you!

No electronic levels? That's rich. They would create such a competitive advantage... ROFL

I would have thought they would have banned or regulated electronic wind meters, but levels?

Since I started shooting they have allowed wind meters at the firing line so why not a Kestrel? It might help for smallbore but frankly an analog "rooster tail" wind device is easier to read and cheaper too.

 

[XTR]

Since I started shooting they have allowed wind meters at the firing line so why not a Kestrel? It might help for smallbore but frankly an analog "rooster tail" wind device is easier to read and cheaper too.

I don’t know who “they“ are in your post but individual wind indicators are not allowed during shooting. In fact that little strip of surveyor tape on your spotting scope can get you protested/penalized/DQ‘d in international shooting and should be disallowed by MDs under NRA rules.

The simple fact of the matter is that MDs in general have gotten lax across the board about almost all of the match mechanics at F class matches. (ECIs being the one exception, thankfully) Did anyone see gear moved off of the line and the line cleared between relays, or an actual “prep period” at SWN this yr?

 

[Jdne5b]

I don’t know who “they“ are in your post but individual wind indicators are not allowed during shooting. In fact that little strip of surveyor tape on your spotting scope can get you protested/penalized/DQ‘d in international shooting and should be disallowed by MDs under NRA rules.

The simple fact of the matter is that MDs in general have gotten lax across the board about almost all of the match mechanics at F class matches. (ECIs being the one exception, thankfully) Did anyone see gear moved off of the line and the line cleared between relays, or an actual “prep period” at SWN this yr?

We did have 3 min prep.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Since I started shooting they have allowed wind meters at the firing line so why not a Kestrel? It might help for smallbore but frankly an analog "rooster tail" wind device is easier to read and cheaper too.

I don’t know who “they“ are in your post but individual wind indicators are not allowed during shooting. In fact that little strip of surveyor tape on your spotting scope can get you protested/penalized/DQ‘d in international shooting and should be disallowed by MDs under NRA rules.

The simple fact of the matter is that MDs in general have gotten lax across the board about almost all of the match mechanics at F class matches. (ECIs being the one exception, thankfully) Did anyone see gear moved off of the line and the line cleared between relays, or an actual “prep period” at SWN this yr?

Kestrels (and similar wind devices) are specifically allowed by NRA Rules. In light of that, why should a piece of surveyor's tape be disallowed? I don't care about the international rules, they can do whatever they want.

3.9.1 Personal Wind Indicators—Self contained wind indicators may be used, as long as they do not present a hazard or impediment to other competitors or range operations and are not placed forward of the firing line.

 

[XTR]

We did have 3 min prep.

Jeremy, I know they called the commands on the line. I‘m referring to the line being cleared between each relay and the next shooter being given “2 min to prep” to move equip up and their “3 minute preparation period” during which time they could remove the ECI.
other than rifles being moved on and off the line the rest of the kit stayed put eccentric during pit changes.

 

[XTR]

Kestrels (and similar wind devices) are specifically allowed by NRA Rules. In light of that, why should a piece of surveyor's tape be disallowed? I don't care about the international rules, they can do whatever they want.

3.9.1 Personal Wind Indicators—Self contained wind indicators may be used, as long as they do not present a hazard or impediment to other competitors or range operations and are not placed forward of the firing line.

When did that one go in the rules? I missed that change.

under ICFRA:
F3.3. Personal wind indicating or measuring devices of any description are forbidden on the firing point or visible from the firing point. “Wind Correction Tables” in printed form, or as “slide rules” are permitted. National or Team flags, flown at the back of the Team Area are not considered a contravention of this rule

 

[Ned Ludd]

When did that one go in the rules? I missed that change.

That came from the [new] 2023 version, but it's been in there for a while. I think it may have been in there as long as I have been shooting F-Class, but I didn't keep some of the older versions of the HighPower Rules.

 

[dcali]

Kestrels (and similar wind devices) are specifically allowed by NRA Rules. In light of that, why should a piece of surveyor's tape be disallowed? I don't care about the international rules, they can do whatever they want.

3.9.1 Personal Wind Indicators—Self contained wind indicators may be used, as long as they do not present a hazard or impediment to other competitors or range operations and are not placed forward of the firing line.

I always interpreted that to mean flags and whatnot. The trend here seems to be people picking at the edges of rules to find things to game that don't really matter. It's like gaming the rules is it's own game. Cause a kestrel behind the firing line is pretty much useless.

 

[Killick]

When did that one go in the rules? I missed that change.

under ICFRA:
F3.3. Personal wind indicating or measuring devices of any description are forbidden on the firing point or visible from the firing point. “Wind Correction Tables” in printed form, or as “slide rules” are permitted. National or Team flags, flown at the back of the Team Area are not considered a contravention of this rule

ICFRA=International, not NRA.
Also;
3.22.c allows “airplane mode” cel phones up to the line which means ballistic calculators are allowed.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I always interpreted that to mean flags and whatnot. The trend here seems to be people picking at the edges of rules to find things to game that don't really matter. It's like gaming the rules is it's own game. Cause a kestrel behind the firing line is pretty much useless.

It's not useless. It tells you something about the wind conditions at [and possibly behind] the firing line. Trying to infer any more out of it than that is the fault of the user, not the tool itself. Knowing that specific information in a condition such as a strong tailwind is not without some value. However, it's not the whole story either, which is probably why wind reading devices are allowed behind the firing line.

 

[Killick]

Whew. I thought I was in trouble. I had grown fond of the pink flagging atop my Pole Cat.

Fun fact. You can also stick an anemometer on top of your scope pole that bluetooths to your phone for a readout.

 

[ronsatspokane]

Y'all sure can suck the fun out of competing. Just put the bag back on your rest and quit reading between the lines.

I see. So I'm the bad guy after some arsehat went sniveling to the NRA about getting beaten by a bad man with side rollers. Yet they will allow mechanical devices that point the rifle and mechanical devices that assist the rifle in return to battery. One wonders if they will allow devices that remove the human from the equation as long as the device is not a side roller. Many questions remain to be asked and answered.

And the only other top have is also illegal. The side bags are not filled with mashed potatoes as is the case with all other side bags on the line. They come that way from the builder. So no, I will not change my top. I'll keep shooting.

 

[Warren Dean]

Fun fact. You can also stick an anemometer on top of your scope pole that bluetooths to your phone for a readout.

There are places where if you tried doing that, you would be asked you to leave the range.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I always interpreted that to mean flags and whatnot. The trend here seems to be people picking at the edges of rules to find things to game that don't really matter. It's like gaming the rules is it's own game. Cause a kestrel behind the firing line is pretty much useless.

Man, you are prophetic. I am going to do just that thing at Rattlesnake this weekend. Figured I'd make a video about the ups and downs of using wind sensor systems on the line. The forecast is for a quartering headwind, so I'm not predicting a super-successful outcome. I'm going to use a Kestrel, a WindZero, and a Calypso independently to see how they can (or can't) benefit the firing solution.

I personally think bluetoothed devices would be illegal under the communications rule (3.22), but we use WiFi to see the target. Who knows how the NRA will rule on that? I've said I think bluetooth wind meters are illegal during matches (under the current rules) and have been roundly criticized for that position. I don't know if anyone has been trying to use them in matches. If they have, I've not noticed them.