Vudoo accuracy fall off

[jsof]

Awhile back someone posted a question about their Vudoo, previously a really accurate rifle, having a severe drop off in accuracy. The thread went on to include a post referring to a video and written discussion by the Vudoo rep himself who had the same thing occur and discovered that the barrel needed to maintain a level of 'seasoning' which had been removed by cleaning with Bore techs rimfire blend, which I take to mean the barrel was, in effect, too clean! The article then laid out his recommended method of cleaning and said that these over clean barrels would then need as much as 1,000+ rounds to 'reseason' and return to their maximum accuracy.
Feel free to correct me if I have any of this wrong, but since I have also seen a severe accuracy loss with my Vudoo after a period of time using Rimfire Blend, I wondered if many others have experienced this issue. I have been trying their suggested technique using just the C4 for a while, maybe 700+ rounds, and check my barrel with a scope which shows some seasoned buildup, for lack of a better term, but unless this return to it's previous terrific accuracy is going to be more sudden than gradual, the results so far have me a bit discouraged as I see no real improvement yet. I intend to hang in with cleaning by their recommended technique, but I guess I'm looking for encouragement by someone who has already gone through this.
Some of his reasoning just doesn't jive because my rifle was incredible right out of the box, and there was no build up then. I could have someone shoot a large caliber bullet and at 50 yards,reliably put my first shot right through the hole often without even nicking it and groups were almost always .300" or less, so why was it so accurate with no real residue laid down in the barrel then before any seasoning, yet cleaning too efficiently which should give like new conditions via the Rimfire Blend, seemed to gradually initiate an accuracy loss?
Any thoughts and comments are appreciated.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Awhile back someone posted a question about their Vudoo, previously a really accurate rifle, having a severe drop off in accuracy. The thread went on to include a post referring to a video and written discussion by the Vudoo rep himself who had the same thing occur and discovered that the barrel needed to maintain a level of 'seasoning' which had been removed by cleaning with Bore techs rimfire blend, which I take to mean the barrel was, in effect, too clean! The article then laid out his recommended method of cleaning and said that these over clean barrels would then need as much as 1,000+ rounds to 'reseason' and return to their maximum accuracy.
Feel free to correct me if I have any of this wrong, but since I have also seen a severe accuracy loss with my Vudoo after a period of time using Rimfire Blend, I wondered if many others have experienced this issue. I have been trying their suggested technique using just the C4 for a while, maybe 700+ rounds, and check my barrel with a scope which shows some seasoned buildup, for lack of a better term, but unless this return to it's previous terrific accuracy is going to be more sudden than gradual, the results so far have me a bit discouraged as I see no real improvement yet. I intend to hang in with cleaning by their recommended technique, but I guess I'm looking for encouragement by someone who has already gone through this.
Some of his reasoning just doesn't jive because my rifle was incredible right out of the box, and there was no build up then. I could have someone shoot a large caliber bullet and at 50 yards,reliably put my first shot right through the hole often without even nicking it and groups were almost always .300" or less, so why was it so accurate with no real residue laid down in the barrel then before any seasoning, yet cleaning too efficiently which should give like new conditions via the Rimfire Blend, seemed to gradually initiate an accuracy loss?
Any thoughts and comments are appreciated.

If that's the case, I'd like to hear from others as to why it would or would not be VooDoo specific.

 

[TRSR8]

Awhile back someone posted a question about their Vudoo, previously a really accurate rifle, having a severe drop off in accuracy. The thread went on to include a post referring to a video and written discussion by the Vudoo rep himself who had the same thing occur and discovered that the barrel needed to maintain a level of 'seasoning' which had been removed by cleaning with Bore techs rimfire blend, which I take to mean the barrel was, in effect, too clean! The article then laid out his recommended method of cleaning and said that these over clean barrels would then need as much as 1,000+ rounds to 'reseason' and return to their maximum accuracy.
Feel free to correct me if I have any of this wrong, but since I have also seen a severe accuracy loss with my Vudoo after a period of time using Rimfire Blend, I wondered if many others have experienced this issue. I have been trying their suggested technique using just the C4 for a while, maybe 700+ rounds, and check my barrel with a scope which shows some seasoned buildup, for lack of a better term, but unless this return to it's previous terrific accuracy is going to be more sudden than gradual, the results so far have me a bit discouraged as I see no real improvement yet. I intend to hang in with cleaning by their recommended technique, but I guess I'm looking for encouragement by someone who has already gone through this.
Some of his reasoning just doesn't jive because my rifle was incredible right out of the box, and there was no build up then. I could have someone shoot a large caliber bullet and at 50 yards,reliably put my first shot right through the hole often without even nicking it and groups were almost always .300" or less, so why was it so accurate with no real residue laid down in the barrel then before any seasoning, yet cleaning too efficiently which should give like new conditions via the Rimfire Blend, seemed to gradually initiate an accuracy loss?
Any thoughts and comments are appreciated.

You have it incorrect, the actual comment from the Vudoo guy was about first shot issues with F class, PRL type shooting. your issue has zero to do with barrel cleaning, which should be done on a regular basis.
Evilio Macdonald has posted on other forums that guns he has built ( he is very experienced) have started out great and at some point experienced a sharp, unexplained falloff. I never did follow to see if he had an explanation, this, I believe was on SH.
FWIW there are few if any RF match barrels that will not perform at their optimum with regular, proper, cleaning.

 

[CharlieNC]

I have no personal experience, but a couple of friends who are very good BR and fclass shooters say to clean thoroughly after every shooting session.

 

[1911nut]

A borescope should reveal something amiss.

If it’s not your cleaning regime could the ignition have become more variable?

Try disassembling the bolt and give it a good cleaning.

 

[grauhanen]

written discussion by the Vudoo rep himself who had the same thing occur and discovered that the barrel needed to maintain a level of 'seasoning' which had been removed by cleaning with Bore techs rimfire blend, which I take to mean the barrel was, in effect, too clean! The article then laid out his recommended method of cleaning and said that these over clean barrels would then need as much as 1,000+ rounds to 'reseason' and return to their maximum accuracy.

Gregory Roman, who says he's worked at Vudoo for several years, wrote an article called "A Guide to .22LR Barrel Care for the Precision Rimfire Shooter." It's available here https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/a-guide-to-22lr-barrel-care-for-the-precision-rimfire-shooter/

In this article he makes the claim that a fully seasoned barrel is necessary for best accuracy and that specifically seasoning "takes at least 1,000 rounds" to do the bore from breech end to muzzle.

He goes on to asssert three things about barrels.

1. They typically shoot well when they are brand new, but still leave room for improvement.
2. Accuracy will fall off after 400-500 rounds and not improve until at least 1,000 rounds fired.
3. The barrel will then start to become super accurate and predictable after 1,000 rounds or more have been sent through it.

Roman claims that with partially seasoned barrels, that is to say prior to 1000 rounds, the shooter will experience flyers and velocity spikes, slower than average velocities, and larger SD and ES.

In short, his cleaning advice begins with seasoning the bore with 1000 rounds. Shooters must make sure a carbon ring is eliminated by use in the chamber area only of a nylon brush and C4 carbon remover. No brush should ever go through the length of the barrel. He says to only patch the bore every 400 rounds or so with C4 followed by dry patches.

According to Roman, once the barrel is fully seasoned with at least 1000 rounds, and his cleaning method followed, the SD and ES will shrink and so, too, will group sizes. In other words, he claims these cleaning methods improve the performance of the ammo itself.

Of course, Roman ignores the experience of RFBR and position shooters. BR shooters often patch between cards. For regular between match cleaning, many, if not the majority, of BR and 3P shooters use either a brass or nylon brush through the bore. They do this to maintain accuracy performance. Match rifle manufacturers also recommend regular cleaning, including the use of brushes through the barrel.

​

 

[68Hoyt]

My new 22 bartlien barrel took rounds to settle in (3-500?) and is very accurate , clean it and groups open up until you get some rounds down the barrel ( 50?) , I tried just scrubbing the chamber end and pushing a couple of patches down the bore this seems to be the best , it does not disturb accuracy

 

[jsof]

I think I will try disassembling and cleaning the bolt.
I looked up the link to Greg Roman's article and was going to post it here, but grauhanen beat me to it. Greg claims good results with his technique and I have no reason to doubt him.
Do you unscrew the jag at the muzzle end each time as he does on the video he made?

 

[kojaone]

Don't Benchrest fellows clean down to steel after each target?No lead or all lead. I know the carbon ring has to go,soak ring with boretech for a bit,soak barrel with Hoppes after every session,patch dry before next session ,carbon gets hard. I leave the lead in and clean carbon.now, I wonder if partial leading or removing part of the leading does this.I tried to work on the lead in my CZ,using Balistol,per pellet gun fellow,it works,sorta,took me 200 rds to get it back.I can't see lead in a bore with the Teslong,it happens to be really shiny,pellet gun feller claims I didn't get all the lead out,patches here and there,hence, the need for seasoning.
Frank Green,Bartlein barrels,always patches Hoppes no.9 in barrels to soak the carbon between matches and storage and says no to abrasives,claims they wreck barrels using one time,the grooves are only .0004 in a 30 cal barrel.What are they in a rimfire?.00025
One of my shooting partners wrecked a super nice CZ 455 with a bore snake and then contested that 22lr's getting carbon rings is BS.He's a better shot than me..... I'm to old to argue.

 

[Shutstr8r]

Awhile back someone posted a question about their Vudoo, previously a really accurate rifle, having a severe drop off in accuracy. The thread went on to include a post referring to a video and written discussion by the Vudoo rep himself who had the same thing occur and discovered that the barrel needed to maintain a level of 'seasoning' which had been removed by cleaning with Bore techs rimfire blend, which I take to mean the barrel was, in effect, too clean! The article then laid out his recommended method of cleaning and said that these over clean barrels would then need as much as 1,000+ rounds to 'reseason' and return to their maximum accuracy.
Feel free to correct me if I have any of this wrong, but since I have also seen a severe accuracy loss with my Vudoo after a period of time using Rimfire Blend, I wondered if many others have experienced this issue. I have been trying their suggested technique using just the C4 for a while, maybe 700+ rounds, and check my barrel with a scope which shows some seasoned buildup, for lack of a better term, but unless this return to it's previous terrific accuracy is going to be more sudden than gradual, the results so far have me a bit discouraged as I see no real improvement yet. I intend to hang in with cleaning by their recommended technique, but I guess I'm looking for encouragement by someone who has already gone through this.
Some of his reasoning just doesn't jive because my rifle was incredible right out of the box, and there was no build up then. I could have someone shoot a large caliber bullet and at 50 yards,reliably put my first shot right through the hole often without even nicking it and groups were almost always .300" or less, so why was it so accurate with no real residue laid down in the barrel then before any seasoning, yet cleaning too efficiently which should give like new conditions via the Rimfire Blend, seemed to gradually initiate an accuracy loss?
Any thoughts and comments are appreciated.

Just wondering, I only use hoppes on a nylon brush in the throat area followed by a pull through patch with hoppes on the end of a knotted piece of weed eater cord. I’ve not had one instance of my voodoo’s loosing accuracy at all. I’ve got about 6k rounds of center X through one, and the other one is just south of 5k rounds. I wonder if you have a carbon or lead ring in the throat?

— Darrell

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Awhile back someone posted a question about their Vudoo, previously a really accurate rifle, having a severe drop off in accuracy. The thread went on to include a post referring to a video and written discussion by the Vudoo rep himself who had the same thing occur and discovered that the barrel needed to maintain a level of 'seasoning' which had been removed by cleaning with Bore techs rimfire blend, which I take to mean the barrel was, in effect, too clean! The article then laid out his recommended method of cleaning and said that these over clean barrels would then need as much as 1,000+ rounds to 'reseason' and return to their maximum accuracy.
Feel free to correct me if I have any of this wrong, but since I have also seen a severe accuracy loss with my Vudoo after a period of time using Rimfire Blend, I wondered if many others have experienced this issue. I have been trying their suggested technique using just the C4 for a while, maybe 700+ rounds, and check my barrel with a scope which shows some seasoned buildup, for lack of a better term, but unless this return to it's previous terrific accuracy is going to be more sudden than gradual, the results so far have me a bit discouraged as I see no real improvement yet. I intend to hang in with cleaning by their recommended technique, but I guess I'm looking for encouragement by someone who has already gone through this.
Some of his reasoning just doesn't jive because my rifle was incredible right out of the box, and there was no build up then. I could have someone shoot a large caliber bullet and at 50 yards,reliably put my first shot right through the hole often without even nicking it and groups were almost always .300" or less, so why was it so accurate with no real residue laid down in the barrel then before any seasoning, yet cleaning too efficiently which should give like new conditions via the Rimfire Blend, seemed to gradually initiate an accuracy loss?
Any thoughts and comments are appreciated.

You sort of answered your reason why accuracy has fallen off. try my suggestion you have nothing to lose.

Lee

 

[TRSR8]

Gregory Roman, who says he's worked at Vudoo for several years, wrote an article called "A Guide to .22LR Barrel Care for the Precision Rimfire Shooter." It's available here https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/a-guide-to-22lr-barrel-care-for-the-precision-rimfire-shooter/

In this article he makes the claim that a fully seasoned barrel is necessary for best accuracy and that specifically seasoning "takes at least 1,000 rounds" to do the bore from breech end to muzzle.

He goes on to asssert three things about barrels.

1. They typically shoot well when they are brand new, but still leave room for improvement.
2. Accuracy will fall off after 400-500 rounds and not improve until at least 1,000 rounds fired.
3. The barrel will then start to become super accurate and predictable after 1,000 rounds or more have been sent through it.

Roman claims that with partially seasoned barrels, that is to say prior to 1000 rounds, the shooter will experience flyers and velocity spikes, slower than average velocities, and larger SD and ES.

In short, his cleaning advice begins with seasoning the bore with 1000 rounds. Shooters must make sure a carbon ring is eliminated by use in the chamber area only of a nylon brush and C4 carbon remover. No brush should ever go through the length of the barrel. He says to only patch the bore every 400 rounds or so with C4 followed by dry patches.

According to Roman, once the barrel is fully seasoned with at least 1000 rounds, and his cleaning method followed, the SD and ES will shrink and so, too, will group sizes. In other words, he claims these cleaning methods improve the performance of the ammo itself.

Of course, Roman ignores the experience of RFBR and position shooters. BR shooters often patch between cards. For regular between match cleaning, many, if not the majority, of BR and 3P shooters use either a brass or nylon brush through the bore. They do this to maintain accuracy performance. Match rifle manufacturers also recommend regular cleaning, including the use of brushes through the barrel.

​

This guy, not to be impolite, is wrong on pretty much every level as far as ultimate accuracy is concerned.
You can go with him or about 95% of the entire RFBR world,including the better smiths, which clean right down to clean metal, usually with a brush.
While some, repeat some barrels require some rounds to come in, some of the best in the world shoot great right from the get go.
This is also, I believe, the guy that made the initial video stating you don‘t need a boreguide .
Your final summation is spot on and absolutely correct.

 

[JimSC]

I rarely clean my CZ 452's and I avg 2200 - 2300 in ARA competition. Last fall a friend convinced me to clean after every match and when I did my scores dropped so I stopped cleaning and my scores went back up. I get a lot less wtf flyers when I have a dirty barrel. Just my personal experience on a pair of ancient CZ's so take that for what it is worth

 

[kojaone]

Dang,rimfires,it drives really good shooters back to trap and centerfires.I have a Savage mark II ,Apache trigger and Athlon Argos.It has no recoil lug,torque the action screws past 15 inch pounds,bends the floor plate,the action hits in two small places,tang and under barrel,ya can see the shine on varnish from action moving.It has riflling that looks they had used a chisel,crown nick,won't shoot target ammo,deep clean,seasons in 6, 5 shots groups with Fiocchi,(Fe okey) and norma tac/22. 6th group will be .2 @50yds.At 111 yds 3/4"ish,with the norma
1.5"+with SK+,Sk Bi and Eley match.I quit shooting it on the same day with my CZ and B14R,as I have no hair to pull.

 

[Matt_3479]

I’m definitely no expert but I noticed with my 16 twist vudoo ace it preferred exactly what they said. I cleaned it with weird flyers for the first 2000 rounds before stumbling across their article. After that I didn’t clean the rifle for over 10,000 rounds and accuracy held excellent right up until I sold it. I focused on cleaning the chamber only when harder bolt close, flyer or an issue would arise due to carbon ring. My 12 twist ibi seem to also smooth out after about 1000 rounds but need more cleaning in the throat more often then the 16 twist. My 16 twist lothar seems to follow suit with the ace. I now only run a dry patch though the barrel to knock any excess stuff that falls in or builds up and throat only every 400-600 on the 12’s and 1000 ish on the 16’s

 

[linebaugh]

I clean every match or about every 2-400 rounds. I deep clean with a brush, especially the chamber and lead area about every 1500-2000 rounds. My regular cleaning is simple. I use a bore guide with a tight fitting patch and Kroil. I run wetted patches through about 8-10 times and follow up with 3 dry patches. My patchez do not come out clean but I knock the bulk of the build up off. I do not shoot benchrest and also only shoot 6-10$ a box ammo. I shoot PRS with my guns.
Typically one to two mags and I am back to shooting very well and usually it shoots plenty good after the first 5 rounds.
All barrels are different. One of my rifles absolutely hammers and only takes 1 or 2 rounds to start grouping and regain poi.
Ammo is also the second huge factor. Finding ammo that your rifle likes and buying in bulk lots makes all the difference. Changing lot numbers can take your tac driver back to a dud immediately. I have had good and bad lots of everythijg from ctrX to std plus. I have had one case of std plus and one case of pistol match special that would outshoot all the centerX I have tried. Fickle things these .22's.
I have not shot much Eley anything. I had a brick of rws50 that made everything I have ever shot look bad but at 20 plus bucks a box I dont think I coukd afford to shoot 2 cases a season and I am sure it has good and bad lots dependent on the rifle and barrel as well.
I actually went with 2 different rifles and barrels so I can buy in bulk and "hope" when I purchase a cpl cases of ammo it works in one or the other.
One final thought is what temps you shoot in. If it shot good when temps were high and bad when low or the other way around it's probably the velocity change hindering your harmonics.

 

[jsof]

Ammo was lot tested and I bought several cases of the best one, but I'm now down to 2,000 rounds left. I sent it to AZ for lot testing recently and while he found a good lot, the tester suggested I contact Vudoo because the rifle didn't shoot as well as most of the Vudoos he tests. That got my butt is gear because I had noticed the severe accuracy loss prior to that so I emailed them and started their cleaning regimen as per their answer. I've come this far using it with no improvement, but figure I'll stay the course for now because of what Matt_3479 says and I've wasted so many rounds to this point. Must say though I have severe doubts.

Regarding temperature, this has been over a wide variety of temps and while the extremes require slightly different tuner settings it still doesn't approach what it used to do.

 

[pmpski_1]

I’m definitely no expert but I noticed with my 16 twist vudoo ace it preferred exactly what they said.

C'mon, 95% of the RFBR world knows better, so if it's working for you, you must be mistaken. You better listen to them because they know all about ultimate accuracy. /s

 

[Matt_3479]

C'mon, 95% of the RFBR world knows better, so if it's working for you, you must be mistaken. You better listen to them because they know all about ultimate accuracy. /s

My mistake, but in my defence I did state “I’m not expert”

 

[pmpski_1]

My mistake, but in my defence I did state “I’m not expert”

Sorry, the "/s" on the end of my post means that I was being sarcastic. If it's working for you, don't worry about what the "experts" say.