Are We Doing Load Development Wrong?

[DiRTY DOG]

Hornady Eposode 50 @ 47:30.
Thirty 3-shot groups, the smallest was 0.2" and largest was 1.1". Averages about 0.5".
Twenty 5-shot groups, the smallest was 0.25" and the largest was 1.4".

That tells me they have an unacceptable variable in their system that yields very inconsistent group sizes. Crappy factory ammo, shooter, rifle, a combo.

Forget my custom barrels. My factory Savage 223 shoots very well with my loads, something would have to go very wrong for it to shoot a 1" 3-shot group or a 1.4" 5-shot group.

 

[Bill Norris]

Hornady Eposode 50 @ 47:30.
Thirty 3-shot groups, the smallest was 0.2" and largest was 1.1". Averages about 0.5".
Twenty 5-shot groups, the smallest was 0.25" and the largest was 1.4".

That tells me they have an unacceptable variable in their system that yields very inconsistent group sizes. Crappy factory ammo, shooter, rifle, a combo.

Forget my custom barrels. My factory Savage 223 shoots very well with my loads, something would have to go very wrong for it to shoot a 1" 3-shot group or a 1.4" 5-shot group.

It certainly don't appear they have anything in their arsenal to write home over.

 

[David Milisock]

On the forum we can all agree or disagree about different things but I appreciate the fact that you tested it. As much as everyone shoots around here, what's an extra 20 or 30 rounds down range to see what happens? If it's an improvement, fantastic. If it isn't, oh well, doesn't hurt to try it.

I remember a little red head like that.

 

[David Milisock]

Well said!

(I hear Scotch, but it has to be an adult (at least 18 years old)...)
I was asked to give up the cigars, except on very special occasions...

Happy New Year!

I do all in moderation so I'm still good to go.

 

[dcali]

Since when did “well enough” cut the mustard around here?

*Everything* is about “good enough”. We are constantly balancing different trade offs. Recoil, weight, cost, velocity, barrel life, accuracy, etc etc etc. if you go overboard on something, you’re neglecting something else. It’s all about optimizing.

In this case, good enough means using those 20 rounds for something more useful than finding a zero with a tiny bit more precision that’s going to get lost in conditions anyhow. A ladder test, for example, is a much better way to spend your time, money, ammo, and barrel. Or if you’re into position shooting, spend those 20 rounds practicing.

 

[Webster]

I believe that even when shooting over flags in SR Benchrest, we still aren't seeing everything that's out there for conditions.

Some of the incredibly small groups and aggs. shot in both SR and LR Benchrest already surpass what pretty advanced math predicts the limits of attainable accuracy to be.

Good shootin' -Al

I mentioned before in June when millions of cotton wood seeds are in the air you can see true wind patterns. The wind is blowing and swirling in at least ten directions within 150 feet.

 

[memilanuk]

From Bryan Zolnikov over on Patreon (posted here with permission):

Hi all, happy new year and I hope you are all well. Just wanted to say thanks for your ongoing support and give you a heads up on an upcoming test regarding tuners. I know I posted about the Litz tuner test already and notes that it was a great test that answered specific questions about tuning and repeatability of the tune when using initially poorly tuned rifles. Litz was testing the claims of a couple specific tuner manufacturers who asserted that their tuners can take poorly tuned rifles and make them shoot small reliably. Litz found that this is not the case. I actually have tried this same method and found exactly what Litz found. Now, I want to extend the testing to test tuners within the context of what they were designed to do: help you get back to tune after the tune falls off after proper load development is conducted. For this purpose, I plan to use a 6PPC and 30BR to test whether the proper method “works.” The method will involve shooting throughout several days and adjusting the tuner when a tune falls. I’ll compare the 5-shot group data from baseline to out-of-tune to turning the tuner to get back in tune. If the proper method “works,” we should see statistically significant differences between baseline and out-of-tune and out-of-tune to getting back in tune. There should not be a statistically significant difference between baseline and getting back in tune. Here is the equipment used:
6PPC: Brand new Bartlein gain twist 13.85-13.75 light varmint barrel (donated) chambered by Speedy Gonzalez threaded to a properly timed BAT Neuvo action screwed into a BAT stock. N133 is the powder and we will use Bart’s bullets (donated). The tuner with be a Chris Harris (donated).
30BR: Brand new Krieger 18 twist 1.25 straight barrel (purchased from Bruno’s from a generous cash donation) chambered by Jeff Lewis and threaded to a Borden Rimrock action. This will be placed in a Kensler/Young hybrid rail gun (same one I won Sniper King with). N130 is the powder and Paul Parosky’s Voodoo bullets (donated) will be used. We also have 100 pieces of necked up turned Lapua BR brass donated. The tuner will be a DSB wide threaded tuner (donated).
I’m excited to share about this upcoming test. It will be the only know systemic test using this particular method with objective statistics analyzed. I have a support person lined up who will maintain the blind procedure where the shooter will not know what tuner setting is set nor will know when the tune falls off.
Not all of the means to conduct this test is donated so your contributions as well as expenses I will have to cover out-of-pocket will make up the rest unless we get donations and/or financial contributions for:
- Brass for the 6PPC
- Powder for the 6PPC (N133 or LT32)
- Primers
- Smithing work for the 30BR
I convened a group call today from expert tuners who provided feedback about the test. We plan to meet again soon to discuss further. The team includes:
Speedy Gonzalez
Jeff Lewis
Jim Borden
Bart Sauter
Erik Cortana
Dan Bradley
Lou Murdica
Jeff Locke (recent 1000 yard BR world record holder)

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Interesting. I look forward to hearing how it goes and helping if I can. I'm afraid I don't know Bryan Z. but I've read some posts on fb

i’m sure you have seen his witch doctor series on youtube and didn’t realize it was Bryan

 

[ilc]

I have just come back from the range after doing some load development.

Rifle: Defiance Tenacity, Bartlein 5R 3b profile 1:8, 260 Rem (match chamber), Manners stock
Load: Lapua brass, Berger 135 Classic Hunter, 41.5 gr H414
Conditions: clear and calm, 100 yds, shot off a rest

Group 1: 0.397 MOA 5 shots while I was wearing a red hat
Group 2: 0.511 MOA 5 shots while I was wearing a blue hat
Group 3: 0.481 MOA 4 shots (flier not counted) while I was wearing a white hat

Conclusion: I should always wear a red hat when shooting

 

[AckleymanII]

PRS crowd, when you have an action that is too short for your cartridge(mag box), a chamber whose geometry is too long for the action length(Mag Box), you have to come up with some kind of methodology to sell.

 

[Jeff Porter]

I have just come back from the range after doing some load development.

Rifle: Defiance Tenacity, Bartlein 5R 3b profile 1:8, 260 Rem (match chamber), Manners stock
Load: Lapua brass, Berger 135 Classic Hunter, 41.5 gr H414
Conditions: clear and calm, 100 yds, shot off a rest

Group 1: 0.397 MOA 5 shots while I was wearing a red hat
Group 2: 0.511 MOA 5 shots while I was wearing a blue hat
Group 3: 0.481 MOA 4 shots (flier not counted) while I was wearing a white hat

Conclusion: I should always wear a red hat when shooting

Correlation and causation! - I love it when a plan comes together.

 

[David Milisock]

I mentioned before in June when millions of cotton wood seeds are in the air you can see true wind patterns. The wind is blowing and swirling in at least ten directions within 150 feet.

This is exactly why I say that the viable ranges for actually making hits on small targets, head shots on chucks, crows and the like in the 90+% range is much shorter than discussed. It is also why I'm a proponent of working loads for the best accuracy with hyper velocities.

I actually take 2 rifles, a 223 and a 6MM Remington, light winds, (5 mph with shorts gusts to 10 mph maybe) the 223 is very effective out to 300 to 350, high 90%. The 6MM Remington under those conditions is good out to 400 at a high 90% rate as well as with the wind up another 5 mph. The 6MM on calm days is a high hitter at 500 and 70% at 600, but that might be that I only take about 30% of those shots that I could take.

Varminters in my opinion are best served talking about the misses then the hits.