Forming Wildcat Brass and Neck Turning

[ddoc1547]

I am currently handloading for a 6.5x280AI. The chamber was designed with necking down 280AI brass in mind. Currently, I am using a Redding S die to neck down Nosler brass. I have tried an intermediate bushing, .300, and have also went straight to .287. Both methods leave me with neck thickness variations of .0015-.002 radially. Also, as is typical with bushing dies, the neck is not sized all the way to the shoulder. So, when I neck turn to .0125 uniformly to the shoulder, I am significantly thinning the brass in the neck/shoulder junction and have begun experiencing case neck cracking.

A second issue I have is new brass at the .200 line measures .4685. After a couple firings the brass measures .4704-.4707 at the same datum. This is causing some extraction problems, "clickers". The redding die will only size the case back to .4695 if I bottom out the die. This would give me about .007 headspace based on brass measurements.

I am including both problems to the post because I am wondering if a custom non bushing FL die would fix both problems. The neck problem must be resolved, but the clickers are only annoying at least and ruining my brass by way of primer pocket expansion after a few firings with mid to moderate loads. Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated. If my barrel weren't already 24" I would probably just ream it to 6.5-284 and be done with it.

 

[ktm571]

I am currently handloading for a 6.5x280AI. The chamber was designed with necking down 280AI brass in mind. Currently, I am using a Redding S die to neck down Nosler brass. I have tried an intermediate bushing, .300, and have also went straight to .287. Both methods leave me with neck thickness variations of .0015-.002 radially. Also, as is typical with bushing dies, the neck is not sized all the way to the shoulder. So, when I neck turn to .0125 uniformly to the shoulder, I am significantly thinning the brass in the neck/shoulder junction and have begun experiencing case neck cracking.

A second issue I have is new brass at the .200 line measures .4685. After a couple firings the brass measures .4704-.4707 at the same datum. This is causing some extraction problems, "clickers". The redding die will only size the case back to .4695 if I bottom out the die. This would give me about .007 headspace based on brass measurements.

I am including both problems to the post because I am wondering if a custom non bushing FL die would fix both problems. The neck problem must be resolved, but the clickers are only annoying at least and ruining my brass by way of primer pocket expansion after a few firings with mid to moderate loads. Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated. If my barrel weren't already 24" I would probably just ream it to 6.5-284 and be done with it.

Look into Redding small base body dies to help at the 0.200" datum. Not sure if they offer one in 280 AI. They might make you one if you ask. Or send 3 cases fired 3x to one of the custom die makers and get a custom sizer. This is the easier of the 2 problems to solve - just takes money.

 

[ktm571]

Look into Redding small base body dies to help at the 0.200" datum. Not sure if they offer one in 280 AI. They might make you one if you ask. Or send 3 cases fired 3x to one of the custom die makers and get a custom sizer. This is the easier of the 2 problems to solve - just takes money.

And, you might try expanding 25-06 brass up to 0.264" then fire form to the AI chamber. You might need to do a false shoulder somehow or seat bullets long for fire forming.

 

[RegionRat]

A neck needs to be rounded and sized for its full length prior to neck turning, otherwise you already pointed out the problem with an over sized blend radius at the neck shoulder junction.

Turning the brass up front or using a FL Sizing die are options that leave the neck within the right conditions for turning all the way to the shoulder radius.

 

[ddoc1547]

All good points. I did consider a small base die, but Redding doesn't make one. I am fortunate enough to live down the road from Whidden Gunworks, so I would probably buy custom dies from them if that is the direction I decide to take. I am curious if people that use small base or custom dies have better luck keeping primer pockets.

I am swapping to fireforming Lapua 30-06 cases. If I turn them after I fireform them, that should fix the neck issue. With some luck, hopefully it "tempers" the casehead issue. After posting this I thought about it and I really hate to buy and wait on a set of custom dies for a caliber I will likely never chamber for. I think I am going to order a new barrel blank instead. I will probably be shooting this barrel for 6 months waiting on the new barrel, so keep the ideas coming!

 

[rickiesrevenge]

06 brass will be .100" short in a 280 unless your chamber was cut for the shorter case

 

[ddoc1547]

06 brass will be .100" short in a 280 unless your chamber was cut for the shorter case

06 brass is .040 short base to shoulder and by neck protrusion into the chamber. Does the extra .060 come from fireforming?

Edit: Also, has anyone ever decided conclusively if it matters? I have read that a bunch when reading up on how to wildcat. I get the carbon ring part, but I remove all of the carbon from my barrel every 100 rounds or so anyway. I just don't know enough about how cartridge makers design brass to say that the shorter neck is better/worse or really has no effect on ballistics.

 

[rickiesrevenge]

The 280 case length is longer, as is 270 if I remember correctly. 30-06 brass is 2.494" , 280 is 2.540", according to SAAMI. So it would be .046" to start with and then when fireformed it'll get even shorter. I can go measure some. I have a 280AI that I had the reamer ground for 06 brass just so I could use lapua. Might be a little less than .100" but it'll be short.

 

[ddoc1547]

The 280 case length is longer, as is 270 if I remember correctly. 30-06 brass is 2.494" , 280 is 2.540", according to SAAMI. So it would be .046" to start with and then when fireformed it'll get even shorter. I can go measure some. I have a 280AI that I had the reamer ground for 06 brass just so I could use lapua. Might be a little less than .100" but it'll be short.

There is a thought for my new 7mm barrel. 280AI using lapua brass. I was thinking .284win but I will keep that in mind. The 280AI brass and chamber are slightly shorter than 280rem. My new 280AI brass measures 2.510. The trim length is 2.515 and max is 2.525. The 30-06 should be 2.490 -.020, but that is SAAMI spec. My new Nosler brass is technically .003 short of SAAMI.

I really don't know what the ramifications of short brass are, but I have a carbon ring with the .280AI brass anyway. I am really beginning to wonder if neck length is no more than what is left over after forming from the strategically made tubes they manufacture brass from. The inventor had to put a number on it for the drawing, so why not what was convenient? Sounds like a call to Hornady is in order. If I find a definitive answer, I will make a new thread about it.

 

[rickiesrevenge]

If its that close I wouldn't worry about it. Might also look at the diameter at the .200 line on the cases. Lapua was quite a bit fatter than the remington brass I started with. Lapua was definitely the way to go.

 

[ddoc1547]

If its that close I wouldn't worry about it. Might also look at the diameter at the .200 line on the cases. Lapua was quite a bit fatter than the remington brass I started with. Lapua was definitely the way to go.

Thanks for your help. I dont know if I will escape the custom die to get me through this barrel, but I am going to try!

 

[ktm571]

Thanks for your help. I dont know if I will escape the custom die to get me through this barrel, but I am going to try!

Been busy - sorry for the lag. One other idea is to have the bushing pocket depth increased in your type S die. The base of a die is super hard, but sometimes the top isn't. I've bored the top of a 6.5-284 body die for a project of mine. This tweak would still leave an irregular blend at the neck-shoulder radius. But I think I would just turn the neck where the bushing sizes it and not go all the way to the shoulder. Also, how thick is the neck getting after sizing down from .28 cal to .26? You'd have to watch and make sure there is adequate neck clearance in the chamber for that part of the case that doesn't get turned with this approach.

For what it's worth, it took me 5 iterations to get my sizer where I want it for the wildcat I'm shooting. Bushing, non-bushing, 2 grinds of the sizing reamer...and in the end I changed the chamber reamer a bit too to allow a little more expansion at the 0.200" datum because the cases grow over time and the sizer just can't get them back to the new-ish diameter to avoid a heavy bolt lift. Even a small base body die can't get them back to the new dia in my experience with the 284 case.

 

[mikecr]

Neck turn NEW brass before sizing down.
It's easy trial & error, especially since you already know about how much it thickens on sizing down.

On the web-line diameter, sounds like your chamber clearance is too much, and you don't have enough breach support. I couldn't suggest a long term fix for that, as brass wants to go where it's been.
You keep sizing so much and it will harden and crack. It's not like you can anneal that area.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I always form before turning. You just gotta get a case to fit then fireform with no bullet to form it. Then expand and turn. The 21st century bushing die is an easy way to get cases to fit a chamber to form them.

 

[ddoc1547]

@ktm571, thanks for the info. I will tuck that boring the die tip away for a later date. Shooting lighter loads has helped with most of the brass problems. Now I am shooting at only slightly higher velocities than a 6.5 CM with more powder and recoil, but it is accurate. It will get me through the barrel and I will not be fooling with this particular cartridge anymore.

As for the neck turning, fireforming first crossed my mind, thanks for the experienced confirmation that it is not a terrible idea! Neck turning first sounds good in theory, but I will probably wind up with the same problem I have in the first place. One side of the neck reads .0155 and the other side reads .0129. This is why I bother with neck turning at all.

Thank you all. I am processing a new batch of Lapua .30-06 brass tomorrow, we will see how it turns out.

 

[butchlambert]

Listen to Dusty, fireform first and then turn. I do not want to expand necks very much at all as it can make you necks a little crooked. Fireforming first will form your brass to your chamber. I always, after the first fireform, trim my brass inorder that all are the same length and then I turn and just kiss the shoulder. To size the body further just get a cheap die, cut abour .050" off the base and then drill the neck out to the OD of the shoulder. You can use that as a small base die. All you need is the die body only and make test passes and keep screwing it down until you have the body of your brass sized properly.
I'm going in to cook, so if you have questions I will look at this in the morning.