Higher pressure producing more carbon buildup?

[RAG]

To what extent do we know/think that super high pressures can result in greater carbon buildup, and/or harder to remove carbon? I know there are many variables to carbon buildup, including cartridge and powder choice, but I've come across some information whereby it was implied that very high pressures will increase carbon problem. Caught my attention because I hate carbon, and I often find myself operating at the upper end of spectrum. If such is the consensus, I'd certainly be willing to back my loads off 100 fps if I'd see significant decreases in carbon buildup...maybe I'll just have to experiment on my next couple varmint shooting trips and find out for myself if I can see a difference.

 

[Walt Krafft]

IMO it is more related to what powder is being used than what pressure. Different powders at the same pressure will deposit different amounts of carbon.

 

[K22]

Personally, I wouldn't be concerned about this issue if you have a load that works very well for you. Firearms are tools, then get used, worn, need to be maintained, and eventually wear out. It's part of the sport. Adjusting a high-performance load just be "tender" to your rifle kind of defeats the performance purpose.

Rifles using large powder charges with powders that produce a lot of carbon can be cleaned more frequently to minimize the effect. Also, some shooters run solvent saturated patches immediately after using the rifle to aid in minimizing carbon / fouling build up.

In my experience, ball powders produce the most carbon build up at least in the calibers I've shot. They also tend to be more temperature sensitive. But again, if you have a really great load with a ball powder that performs very well, I wouldn't change it solely on the basis of creating less carbon.

If you're concerned about barrel wear, from my research, heat is the number one cause of barrel erosion. This can be minimized by avoiding over bore cartridges if possible. If you shoot a lot at the range in recreational shooting, overbore cartridges are probably not the best option. However, they have their place for long range performance for shooters that specialize in long-range sports shooting. For example, in varmint hunting, the 22 250 is a terrific long range varmint rifle.

Another factor is rate of fire. Higher rates of fire create more heat thus more erosion. But in match shooting for example, this can't be avoided - it's part of the game. High volume varmint hunters such as pdog hunters often use multiple rifles during a hunt to minimize heat build up in one specific rifle.

"Very high" pressures should be avoided in my opinion for safety reasons. If your load is showing signs of "very high" pressure you should back off the load and / or investigate the reason. Safety always has to be the number one priority.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

My experience has been the opposite. More pressure virtually always yields a cleaner burn and less carbon.

 

[BoydAllen]

I agree with the previous poster, lower pressures are more likely to produce more powder fouling.. I have seen this with the same powder and cartridge. My recommendation is to shoot the load that gives the best performance and adjust your cleaning to deal with it.

 

[RAG]

Right. I too was thinking a hotter load was likely to burn more of the powder and lay down less carbon than a powder puff load. But I just happened to be watching this video with Jack Neary, and a couple times he implied that hotter loads would result in more carbon. In the video, he mentioned it early on, and then again referenced it at about 6:45. And thus, I simply wanted to explore the topic a little more. And I really don't want to stir up any controversy...I have little doubt Mr. Neary has observed in his PPC, with whatever powder he's using, that once he exceeds a certain charge, he noticed his carbon fouling was worse...so I just wanted to see if this is a common occurence that many people notice.

 

[RAG]

Rifles using large powder charges with powders that produce a lot of carbon can be cleaned more frequently to minimize the effect. Also, some shooters run solvent saturated patches immediately after using the rifle to aid in minimizing carbon / fouling build up.


If you're concerned about barrel wear, from my research, heat is the number one cause of barrel erosion. This can be minimized by avoiding over bore cartridges if possible. If you shoot a lot at the range in recreational shooting, overbore cartridges are probably not the best option. However, they have their place for long range performance for shooters that specialize in long-range sports shooting. For example, in varmint hunting, the 22 250 is a terrific long range varmint rifle.

Agreed. I'll shoot the load that tunes out best...

And, for this posting anyhow, I wasn't really concerned with barrel life...just wondering if keeping pressures a touch lower would actually make a significant difference of reducing carbon fouling, and thus make cleaning easier. Sounds like this is not the case, according to consensus here anyway.

Coincidentally, on the barrel life discussion, I'm currently trying to run cooler burning ball powder to extend barrel life in my varmint guns, albeit possibly at the expense of burning a dirtier, more temperature sensitive powder (for sure). But my limited observation/experience shows a lot less fire cracking and throat erosion when shooting the likes of AA2230 compared with Benchmark, LT32 or Varget...in my high volume varmint guns (6BR, 6PPC, 223AI) but there are others whom will have more experience than this than I on this matter. I'll have a better idea of how much difference this makes in a couple years, after another 5 or 6 varmint trips.

 

[K22]

Agreed. I'll shoot the load that tunes out best...

And, for this posting anyhow, I wasn't really concerned with barrel life...just wondering if keeping pressures a touch lower would actually make a significant difference of reducing carbon fouling, and thus make cleaning easier. Sounds like this is not the case, according to consensus here anyway.

Coincidentally, on the barrel life discussion, I'm currently trying to run cooler burning ball powder to extend barrel life in my varmint guns, albeit possibly at the expense of burning a dirtier, more temperature sensitive powder (for sure). But my limited observation/experience shows a lot less fire cracking and throat erosion when shooting the likes of AA2230 compared with Benchmark, LT32 or Varget...in my high volume varmint guns (6BR, 6PPC, 223AI) but there are others whom will have more experience than this than I on this matter. I'll have a better idea of how much difference this makes in a couple years, after another 5 or 6 varmint trips.

I'm an avid varmint hunter - eastern groundhogs which is a lot less intense shooting than pdog hunting thus a lot less stress on the bore relative to high volume shooting.

I moved away from ball powders several years ago, not because they didn't produce excellent groups but because of temperature effects that caused POI changes and pressure surges. The stick (extruded) powders seem to be more stable from spring to the height of heat in the summer. I also hunt predator in the colder months.

I also move to the 223 Rem as my prime varmint / predator cartridge since it handles 95% of my shot opportunities at the farms where I hunt. This cartridge has a long precision barrel life assuming you don't shoot rapid fire strings like I see a lot of the AR guys doing at the range presumably practicing for self-defense or WWIII.

There is not one right answer to this issue. It's what works best for you and your hunting scenario. Cleaning is a necessary unpleasant task but by doing a little experimentation you may be able find a procedure that works best for you and minimizes the effort involved. There are so many opinions and theories on this subject that you will get a migraine trying to sort it all out. But some basic experimentation may lead you to a procedure / solvent that works best for you if you base the results on performance.

 

[BoydAllen]

Right. I too was thinking a hotter load was likely to burn more of the powder and lay down less carbon than a powder puff load. But I just happened to be watching this video with Jack Neary, and a couple times he implied that hotter loads would result in more carbon. In the video, he mentioned it early on, and then again referenced it at about 6:45. And thus, I simply wanted to explore the topic a little more. And I really don't want to stir up any controversy...I have little doubt Mr. Neary has observed in his PPC, with whatever powder he's using, that once he exceeds a certain charge, he noticed his carbon fouling was worse...so I just wanted to see if this is a common occurence that many people notice.

I have tried light loads of 133 with my 6PPC and the result was more powder fouling. IMO at some point, we need to stop trying to do this hobby by watching videos and do the tests that we are equipped to do.

 

[Liven The Dream]

Good Post.
I have been shooting a straight .284 in a F/Class Rifle for a couple years now.
I run H-4350 and 180 HB at 2820 Now 2760 give or take. Brux Barrels.

I am amazed at the carbon in my barrel.
I am now a cleaning machine on my barrels.
I shot Palma for years with Varget and never remember this carbon problem.

Thanks,
Don

 

[46and2]

Agreed. I'll shoot the load that tunes out best...

And, for this posting anyhow, I wasn't really concerned with barrel life...just wondering if keeping pressures a touch lower would actually make a significant difference of reducing carbon fouling, and thus make cleaning easier. Sounds like this is not the case, according to consensus here anyway.

Coincidentally, on the barrel life discussion, I'm currently trying to run cooler burning ball powder to extend barrel life in my varmint guns, albeit possibly at the expense of burning a dirtier, more temperature sensitive powder (for sure). But my limited observation/experience shows a lot less fire cracking and throat erosion when shooting the likes of AA2230 compared with Benchmark, LT32 or Varget...in my high volume varmint guns (6BR, 6PPC, 223AI) but there are others whom will have more experience than this than I on this matter. I'll have a better idea of how much difference this makes in a couple years, after another 5 or 6 varmint trips.

Are you talking about powder fouling or carbon deposits?
There is a huge difference.

Running patches till they come out white, that is powder fouling.

Carbon deposits take elbow grease, abrasives, bronze brushes and a borescope to remove.

 

[Beiruty]

Baked Carbon deposits are tough as granite to remove, that is espacially true in the first 4" of the barrel, the area where the powder is generating the highest pressure.

Example, cleaning a 6.5 PRC, 30" barrel.
It was straight forward to clean the barrel after the 5" to the end of the barrel.
Baked carbon deposits was tough to remove in the first 4" of the barrel (50% done) with 1-hr cleaning session. Maybe an overnight soaking of Patchout could take care of the rest

Teslong was the tool used to measure the progress of cleaning the barrel

Note, the copper deposit loves to stick to the last 2" or so of the barrel

 

[K22]

I have tried light loads of 133 with my 6PPC and the result was more powder fouling. IMO at some point, we need to stop trying to do this hobby by watching videos and do the tests that we are equipped to do.

I would like to add that performance-based results should be the goal of reloading, cleaning, etc.

While the information overload on the net can be entertaining and even sometimes useful, nothing is quite effective as testing to valid a load / cleaning process, etc. In the final analysis, the goal is to consistently hit the designated target area.