flags, Flags, FLAGS!!!!

[rjtfroggy]

You can also see pretty quickly how shooters like the HBR (Hunter Bench Rest) class that are limited to 6X scopes can shoot such good scores (especially at 100 yds)....you can see all the flags in your scope. There's a point where seeing the flags gives you more than than the lower scope power costs you.

For anyone just starting out with flags, my suggestion is to reduce the scope power so you can see the flags until you get used to it. With the proper target like the IBS/NBRSA Score targets that help the eye center on the target, you'll be surprised how well you can shoot. Later on, start bringing the power up and moving the near flags off to you side.

For what it's worth..... -Al
[/QUOTE

With my 6x I can usually see the flags of the shooters on both sides of me. Most times if I set mine also it gets confusing so I don't normally put mine out. But I'm not in the same league as these guys.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

IMO the opinions of people who do not own or regularly use wind flags, about flags, are pretty much in the same category as those that tell you what is going on inside their barrels without using or owning a bore scope.

With regard to lasers, in the distant past I ran a relatively large outdoor range with paid rangemasters, that was open seven days a week to members and shooting public, and I can tell you with great certainty that without supervision, or concern about some sort of consequences, safety rules will not be properly followed. Bottom line, when considering things like lasers, that are strong enough to do retinal damage, the presumption that people will act responsibly is not well founded. Many will, some won't.

Thats kind of how I feel about short range shooters telling long range shooters how to do it. Or vice versa for that matter. First hand personal experiance matters in all aspects.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Id say put them out to 200 if possible and 100 definitely. The wind at 75 makes way more difference than the wind at 900. Just copy what bart does. The main thing flags out to 100 will do is show you how long something will hold and tell you when to stop or not start

Exactly. Thats what is done at deep creek but and some around 600, but we are still shooting blind across the vast majority of the range. So I dont really consider that reading flags, not in the way a sr shooter does. Thats why I emphasize speed. You can get a rough idea of what your shooting in but you really dont know. Based on my experiance shooting pretty much only 1k this has worked out best for me. I am in agreement 100% at 100 and 200, you shoot flags.

 

[Mulligan]

Just a few years ago, I trimmed a couple of 4’-5’ sticks and placed surveyors tape (pink as I am colorblind and the fluorescent pink looks different) at one end.
I would set these up on the 75 yard and 100 yard berms at our range when we had a 600 yard IBS match. Believe it or not, it worked fairly well at helping me to judge the condition. I now have several of the Ezell flags that I use for Long Range BR, these are set inside of 100 yards.

We now have several shooters using the stick and flagging tape and 2-4 others that bring their short range flags to the 600 yard matches. Three of the shooters will normally set a flag about 550 yards on a berm so they can see the flag in their scopes.

In my opinion, the flags help a lot with a condition change in the ~10 seconds between sighter and record targets.
CW

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Anything is better than nothing..even surveyor tape on stick. But just do you. I'm done.

 

[BoydAllen]

Thats kind of how I feel about short range shooters telling long range shooters how to do it. Or vice versa for that matter. First hand personal experiance matters in all aspects.

Just to be clear, I wasn't....and I agree. I have always tried to learn all I could from those who do other kinds of shooting, and I have. I will say that you have brought some cross pollination into long range, glued bedding and loading or at least adjusting loads as close to match times as is practical. At 600, it was Bart who I believed introduced the use of short range flags. IMO people testing new stuff is always fun to learn about, and you have furnished more than your fair share of that. Thanks for that.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Just to be clear, I wasn't....and I agree. I have always tried to learn all I could from those who do other kinds of shooting, and I have. I will say that you have brought some cross pollination into long range, glued bedding and loading or at least adjusting loads as close to match times as is practical. At 600, it was Bart who I believed introduced the use of short range flags. IMO people testing new stuff is always fun to learn about, and you have furnished more than your fair share of that. Thanks for that.

Boyd, I had those wind socks made up about 13 years ago for 600 yards. Im not a stranger to flags. Im not an expert either, no doubt Bart can read them better than me. I think I have done a poor job of explaining myself here so I will try again.

When this topic comes up, the type of shooting is left out. When someone says they shoot over flags I am assuming they are watching them during their testing or record group. That takes time. Even if its small. At short range a good flag reader can do this and improve his groups. Not to mention the sighter target use to verify what the wind does to the bullet during the record target. Theres no doubt flags are a must at short range. What I am saying is at 1k they slow you down. Yes I use them, but not during my testing or during a record group. I use them in our sighter period to see what a condition is doing to the bullet or to see if they are honest. Sometime the mirage is honest and flags lie. Our trajectory is high enough you cant place flags at that height. But when its go time, I am going and Im not slowing down to look at a flag. Im not saying this is the best practice at every range in the country but its worked out better for me at the ones I shoot.

 

[BoydAllen]

Boyd, I had those wind socks made up about 13 years ago for 600 yards. Im not a stranger to flags. Im not an expert either, no doubt Bart can read them better than me. I think I have done a poor job of explaining myself here so I will try again.

When this topic comes up, the type of shooting is left out. When someone says they shoot over flags I am assuming they are watching them during their testing or record group. That takes time. Even if its small. At short range a good flag reader can do this and improve his groups. Not to mention the sighter target use to verify what the wind does to the bullet during the record target. Theres no doubt flags are a must at short range. What I am saying is at 1k they slow you down. Yes I use them, but not during my testing or during a record group. I use them in our sighter period to see what a condition is doing to the bullet or to see if they are honest. Sometime the mirage is honest and flags lie. Our trajectory is high enough you cant place flags at that height. But when its go time, I am going and Im not slowing down to look at a flag. Im not saying this is the best practice at every range in the country but its worked out better for me at the ones I shoot.

I have always said that different shooting sports can have quite different realities. When I was president of a large urban rifle and pistol of club, I took the time to inform myself about each of the several types of competition. We did not have a benchrest group, but Visalia is not that far away. BTW in short range, when conditions allow it, running a five shot group as fast as a rifle can be operated is a common technique. In those cases a quick glance at the flags for the last four shots probably adds less than four seconds. Typically at 100 we use four flags, and at 200 five or six. The Fresno range has a HIghpower range with full pits and firing points out to 800 yards, and some of the best shooters in the nation would come to those matches. When I was around those guys I asked a few questions, and listened to everything they said. None of it was like benchrest.

 

[David Milisock]

Did some shooting at 200 yards. Was well on my way to a superb 200 yd group. Checked the spotting scope on #4, wow. In haste I let #5 go, out to the right. Had 4 wind flags out, 1 and 2 still showing 3 to 5 mph but 3 and 4 were now showing zero. This happens when not paying attention to the flags.

Try varmint hunting!

 

[BartsBullets]

Boyd, I had those wind socks made up about 13 years ago for 600 yards. Im not a stranger to flags. Im not an expert either, no doubt Bart can read them better than me. I think I have done a poor job of explaining myself here so I will try again.

When this topic comes up, the type of shooting is left out. When someone says they shoot over flags I am assuming they are watching them during their testing or record group. That takes time. Even if its small. At short range a good flag reader can do this and improve his groups. Not to mention the sighter target use to verify what the wind does to the bullet during the record target. Theres no doubt flags are a must at short range. What I am saying is at 1k they slow you down. Yes I use them, but not during my testing or during a record group. I use them in our sighter period to see what a condition is doing to the bullet or to see if they are honest. Sometime the mirage is honest and flags lie. Our trajectory is high enough you cant place flags at that height. But when its go time, I am going and Im not slowing down to look at a flag. Im not saying this is the best practice at every range in the country but its worked out better for me at the ones I shoot.

Alex,

It does depend on the discipline for sure. For myself, if it’s legal I want to use flags. It’s just another tool to try and read conditions.

I put three flags out for 600/1000 yard matches. I usually place them at 40, 80, and 120 yards. The plan is to get a condition on the flags to agree with the mirage at the far end. Then I’ll test the flags and mirage and see which is telling the truth.

Watching flags and mirage while running a group for 600/1000 yard competition does not slow me down. Ive got both eyes open, one on the flags the other in the scope. I’ll often make two or three different holds while running a group, based off of what the flags are telling me. It doesn’t matter what range you’re at, if there’s a hard reverse in the front of the range ( it doesn’t matter what the mirage says), that shot is not going. The same thing can be said for mirage on the far end. If it switches and starts running hard the opposite direction chances are high you won’t like the results.

Short Range vs Long Range Benchrest

Both disciplines have a lot they can teach each other. I can say for a fact that in long or short range Benchrest there’s a steep learning curve for both.

Bart

 

[Shooter13]

Alex,

It does depend on the discipline for sure. For myself, if it’s legal I want to use flags. It’s just another tool to try and read conditions.

I put three flags out for 600/1000 yard matches. I usually place them at 40, 80, and 120 yards. The plan is to get a condition on the flags to agree with the mirage at the far end. Then I’ll test the flags and mirage and see which is telling the truth.

Watching flags and mirage while running a group for 600/1000 yard competition does not slow me down. Ive got both eyes open, one on the flags the other in the scope. I’ll often make two or three different holds while running a group, based off of what the flags are telling me. It doesn’t matter what range you’re at, if there’s a hard reverse in the front of the range ( it doesn’t matter what the mirage says), that shot is not going. The same thing can be said for mirage on the far end. If it switches and starts running hard the opposite direction chances are high you won’t like the results.

Short Range vs Long Range Benchrest

Both disciplines have a lot they can teach each other. I can say for a fact that in long or short range Benchrest there’s a steep learning curve for both.

Bart

Never shot long range but would love to, just logistics of finding some place within a reasonable drive. As far as me telling anyone how to shoot a discipline is beyond me. I think for competition short range BR flags are mandatory IF you want to do well, I do have a friend that has had new flags and don't know if he has ever used them as we use mine if we are on the same bench or he just looks at everyone else! I do know that if I shot LR I would have to have them in the scope because even at 300 meters they are hard for me to see. I do believe one of the problems we have on this forum is when someone starts a topic discussion most fail to state what they are shooting (ie: lr, short range br, varmint or just for fun) and that is what causes topic to get so screwed up because most don't ask the correct questions before interjecting into the conversation. JMHO

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex,

It does depend on the discipline for sure. For myself, if it’s legal I want to use flags. It’s just another tool to try and read conditions.

I put three flags out for 600/1000 yard matches. I usually place them at 40, 80, and 120 yards. The plan is to get a condition on the flags to agree with the mirage at the far end. Then I’ll test the flags and mirage and see which is telling the truth.

Watching flags and mirage while running a group for 600/1000 yard competition does not slow me down. Ive got both eyes open, one on the flags the other in the scope. I’ll often make two or three different holds while running a group, based off of what the flags are telling me. It doesn’t matter what range you’re at, if there’s a hard reverse in the front of the range ( it doesn’t matter what the mirage says), that shot is not going. The same thing can be said for mirage on the far end. If it switches and starts running hard the opposite direction chances are high you won’t like the results.

Short Range vs Long Range Benchrest

Both disciplines have a lot they can teach each other. I can say for a fact that in long or short range Benchrest there’s a steep learning curve for both.

Bart

Thats a no brainer for you then. I just cant watch both like that. I used to, but it did slow me down. I can read the mirage though and here that works well. When a gun is tracking Im running about as fast as I could dry fire. I think its good to have as many tricks in the bag as possible though. But I do know you can successfully tune rifles to shoot very well without flags contrary to the belief of many. Also simply having them wont help you, knowing how to read them is what matters and I think thats a skill in itself. Im just being disagreeable I guess

 

[BartsBullets]

Thats a no brainer for you then. I just cant watch both like that. I used to, but it did slow me down. I can read the mirage though and here that works well. When a gun is tracking Im running about as fast as I could dry fire. I think its good to have as many tricks in the bag as possible though. But I do know you can successfully tune rifles to shoot very well without flags contrary to the belief of many. Also simply having them wont help you, knowing how to read them is what matters and I think thats a skill in itself. Im just being disagreeable I guess

At least in short range group, All the top shooters will run the gun with both eyes open and adjust on the fly. After years of doing it, it’s second nature.

I agree there are several ways to arrive at a tuned gun. Flags, no flags nothing matters except how it performs when they say replace bolts. I remember being told that I couldn’t tune for mid or long range at 100 yards.

Long Range and Short just keep evolving. It’s keep up or get left behind.

Bart

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Theres no doubt about it. Its evolving and getting better. I sure cant tune a gun at 100 and make it shoot ones at 1k but Im going to give it a try for 600. None of this really matters, just the results. I just like to keep the discourse going because there is more than one way. Thats a fact.

 

[BartsBullets]

Theres no doubt about it. Its evolving and getting better. I sure cant tune a gun at 100 and make it shoot ones at 1k but Im going to give it a try for 600. None of this really matters, just the results. I just like to keep the discourse going because there is more than one way. Thats a fact.

Let’s derail the thread. Why do you think you can tune a gun at 100 for 600 yard comp but not for 1000.

 

[dbduff]

View attachment 1356883
Here are 7 - 9 flags at out to 300m. This is kinda my view without the scope. When they all turn a color you can see it out to 200. The farthest 3 are in the scope. The Tails are the real deal. Direction is just the direction
Ppl know i set allot of flags mainly because I have them. (It was a little bit of a buying obsession of mine) But it's really cool to see them all line up the same way. Easy to see. . Helps me have a plan.

How do you set them out to 300? Do you use a laser to line them up? Use two people or one? We use cell phones to the guy at shooting bench but that gets cumbersome.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

OK
It has less to do with thinking than it does with seeing. I have a lot of customers and I keep in touch. I dont just build the rifle and Im done. I get a lot of targets, tuning questions, results, ext. Theres a huge difference between the 600 and 1k guys. At 600, the short range tuning seems to work out quite often. Same goes for the low node. At 1k the more success comes from 1k tuning and the high node. I like to look at the overall trend not just a couple guys. Now I didnt say cant, I said I cant. And I have tried a lot. If I had to guess I would say the trajectory is over double at 1k as it is a 600 and if you think about how positive compensation works then you see how the tune could change. Im not a linear dispersion guy.

 

[BartsBullets]

OK
It has less to do with thinking than it does with seeing. I have a lot of customers and I keep in touch. I dont just build the rifle and Im done. I get a lot of targets, tuning questions, results, ext. Theres a huge difference between the 600 and 1k guys. At 600, the short range tuning seems to work out quite often. Same goes for the low node. At 1k the more success comes from 1k tuning and the high node. I like to look at the overall trend not just a couple guys. Now I didnt say cant, I said I cant. And I have tried a lot. If I had to guess I would say the trajectory is over double at 1k as it is a 600 and if you think about how positive compensation works then you see how the tune could change. Im not a linear dispersion guy.

You just confirmed a theory of mine. Just from running the numbers on a ballistic calculator you can see that it’s very advantageous to run the rifle on the high node for 1000 yards. The bullet is loosing so much steam at that distance the extra 50-60 fps makes a huge difference.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I dont know what it is. I can say that I tuned a very very good rifle here in Dillon. 5500 ft above sea level. At the low node. It shot zeros, ones, 10 shout groups in the threes, and I could not fix that tune in Missoula 3300 ft I think. I had to go to the high node and it was happy. But in my thin air the low node worked. You tell me, I dont know. Because theres a few outliers that have low node success. I have been thinking more about compensation than just the extra fps. I personally think the high node just compensates better at 1k.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

How do you set them out to 300? Do you use a laser to line them up? Use two people or one? We use cell phones to the guy at shooting bench but that gets cumbersome.

Been done for a while. Now, cell phones or two way radios but hand signals still work, in a pinch.