On the subject of bronze brushes versus nylon.

[BoydAllen]

Makes sense - I can see how that could be of value as long as it's linked to performance. My issue was just cleaning to obtain a "good" borescope image without regards to performance results.

Just last week at the range, a guy was shooting with top grade equipment, with tailored reloads. As a conversation ensued it became clear that he was very knowledgeable. He was shooting some very impressive groups at 200 yards. The topic of cleaning came up. I asked him his thoughts.

He showed me pictures of his bore taken from his bore scope after a thorough and aggressive carbon and copper removal cleaning of his target grade 6.5 Creedmoor that was done some time ago. He then told me that it took about 20 to 30 rounds for the POI and groups to settle it which supported the idea of establishing 'copper equilibrium'. This led him to backing off the aggressive copper removal as part of his cleaning process which produced more consistent groups and POI.

This is similar to what I discovered in 2020 - 2021 when I began experiencing first shot flyers and the need to "season" the barrel before it would print a consistent POI after I began using Bore Tech Cu+2 after carbon cleaning with C4. Now I just use C4 with a bronze brush and at least on paper, I'm obtaining more consistent groups and POI.

I have a friend who shoots long range out to over a thousand yards with a group of friends. His go to caliber, based on a windy location and a desire not to shoot 50 shots of a higher recoiling caliber is 6.5 Creedmoor He uses a bore scope all the time to find out if a particular barrel has a copper fouling issue. Typically he is able to shoot a single "oil shot" and have excellent accuracy after that. After cleaning he puts a few drops of a particular gun oil on a patch and runs it up and down the bore a couple of times followed by the same thing with a dry patch, so that there is only a slight residue of oil in the bore. His experience has been that for the highest accuracy with the highest quality barrels that very small amounts of copper do not harm accuracy, but if there are larger deposits, particularly near the muzzle that accuracy suffers. He does his own work and uses a variety of top brand barrels. In his case, he has found that using stronger chemicals for barrel cleaning was counterproductive. He cleans with Butch's, patches and brushes with frequently replaced bronze brushes. Previously he used stronger chemicals, because they worked faster, and did more soaking and less brushing. He was always having problems getting barrels to break in. I told him that while I don't want any fouling in a barrel that there is a "patina" that I want to preserve and that a good petroleum based solvent that has some ammonia, but not an extreme amount had worked well for me, for years. These cleaning threads tend to ignore the major differences between cleaning top grade, lapped barrels and lesser barrels, including virtually all factory barrels. In my experience, the rougher a barrel is inside the more likely it is to need several shots to come in after a complete cleaning. That is one of the main reasons that I bought my first top grade barrel many years ago, a Hart, back when they were showing up more in match reports.

 

[MUP]

Really?
Here is a true story.
In the mid 2000’s, at the last NBRSA Nationals at Midland Tx, we had finished shooting the Unlimited portion, and Tuesday eave several of us were sitting around shooting the bull and the subject of barrel cleaning came up.

Everybody had an opinion. I told everybody I used nothing but Butches Bore Shine, and did nothing more than brush it with a bronze brush and then run however many soaked patches it took for them to come out clean Usually around six.

Everybody agreed that there was no way my barrels were “clean”..

A very well known shooter produced a borescope, and everybody volunteered to have him take a look at their barrels.

My barrel was dead on arrival. he claimed he could see copper, carbon, and gosh knows what else.He suggested a cleaning regiment and everything I needed to do to get it ready for the next morning‘s 100 yard LV.

I told him it was fine. I did my usual clean after the last practice and I wasn’t concerned.

All I did was go out and win the yardage the next morning with a .162 agg.

And I have won a heck of a lot since.

I have a borescope. All I use it for is to check the throats in my barrels I have just chambered to insure I did get it right.

Now, I know that many shooting disciplines are not like Short Range 100/200/300 yard Benchrest, where we are afforded time to load and clean after every relay. We keep our barrels clean by never letting things get out of hand, whether at practice or in a Match.

I feel much better after reading this.

 

[Dave M.]

My question is which grade of bronze wool should I use? The coarse or the fine?

I have both medium and fine. The medium works far better. The fine is far too fine and is like silk. I’ve never tried the coarse.

 

[DawidB]

I became a crowd follower, while claiming not to be.

On the subject of bronze brushes versus nylon.

I've been getting several strange results trying to figure out a groove diameter. After trying several methods, and looking at things carefully with a borescope, I realised the measurements are skewed by carbon buildup in the grooves towards the muzzle.

The rifle is fairly new, 300 rounds approximately so far. I've always used nylon brushes to clean it. I dip the end of a brush in the particular solvent, then brush the barrel with ten strokes. seperate brushes for each solvent. My cleaning involves a first pass with Ballistol, patched out, and a second with Boretech Eliminator. This process is repeated three times, and the Boretech sits for about 10 minutes each time before being patched out. I sometimes use Forrest bore cleaning foam before the first pass of Ballistol, and leave it in for an hour before continuing,

When the last patch is clean, I run one final patch with balistol, and I put the rifle away. I thought I was doing a good job of cleaning.

The first thing I did when I realised what I was dealing with was a twenty strokes scrub with Eliminator, and let it sit for an hour. Two patches later it was 'clean'. Borescope called bull-crap. Eliminator, brush, leave overnight. Next day, first patch was clean. I went through other solvents in my box. Butch's Bore Shine, Shooter's Choice and a foul smelling orange liquid in a bottle with no label. Nothing better came of it. I used JB Bore paste. All I got on the patches was JB Bore Paste. Same with Iosso. Then I went to Google.

I found mention of using a penetrating oil and a brush.

So I got myself a tin of Q5. Applied the Q5, brushed with the nylon brush, a bit of black on the first patch, third patch clean. Borescope still calling bull-crap.

I had one old bronze brush. It was the right size for the bore. Liberal squirt of Q5, wait one minute, bronze brush - jackpot. My barrel vomited black oil. I've been repeating this every few hours for two days, and the borescope is finally agreeing that cleaning is actually taking place.

300 rounds sounds like a low round count to have such a hard carbon fouling problem, but that represents close to 32,000 grains of powder. Enough, I think, to build up to this extent.

Nylon brushes do not clean anything. All a nylon brush does is spread the solvent around the bore nicely for you, and solvent is great for dissolving copper. All I manged to do with nylon brushes and patches was remove excess, then polish the residue into place in the barrel.

Whoever invented the nylon brush was not a rifle shooter, and never had to get a rifle barrel clean with one.

This is not a comment on the efficiency of any product named here. I just described what I did, and with what. It is entirely possible I was using the product the wrong way, not enough of, or without a key additive to go with it.

I've ordered bronze brushes for all my target rifles. I understand a bronze brush eventually wears, but that's why you can buy packs of 10.

The nylon brushes are only good for spreading copper solvent in the bore.

Agree100%, I can echo the same experience , no ‘wonder solution’ for carbon, elbow grease the only solution.

 

[Dave M.]

I feel much better after reading this.

That is the thing with this site. There are some extremely accomplished shooters on here that use very unorthodox methods. Point is, find out what your barrel likes and stick to the same consistent process as long as you are getting the results you desire. Jackie could have bowed down to his piers in that situation and thrown the kitchen sink cleaning regime at his barrel, he chose not to and look how he faired.
Dave

 

[MUP]

That is the thing with this site. There are some extremely accomplished shooters on here that use very unorthodox methods. Point is, find out what your barrel likes and stick to the same consistent process as long as you are getting the results you desire. Jackie could have bowed down to his piers in that situation and thrown the kitchen sink cleaning regime at his barrel, he chose not to and look how he faired.
Dave

I'm one who has shot since I was old enough to carry a rifle on my own, but, have only recently began to shoot on a more serious, and longer range basis, thus the topic of "how to properly clean your rifle" naturally came with my relatively new revelation with shooting. I'm one who has let my barrels go far too long without properly cleaning (hoppe's #9) and have to deal with copper buildup and carbon rings. I appreciate all the insight here guys, I'll be learning till the end most likely.

 

[David Milisock]

I hunt eastern ground hogs that have a relatively small vital area. Add in wind, mirage, heat, insects buzzing around your head and the most significant variable is me and my ability to place a controlled shot precisely off a shooting cross stick in the field in a hunting environment.

Of course, through careful load development, I have established varmint grade loads (for me the standard is approximately 1/2 moa) so when something goes haywire - it me.

The only time that cleaning became an issue was when I switched from Shooter's Choice to Bore Tech C4 and CU+2. I was totally content with Shooter's Choice for 30+ years but the odor bothered my wife, so I switched to an odorless solvent.

I began developing first shot flyers and the need to season the barrel to achieve consistent POI. After a painful and long process, much research, I discover it was the Cu+2 that was the culprit. It does a great job of removing copper if that's what you want. For me, it caused erratic performance results until the barrel was "re-seasoned." Now I just use C4 with a bronze brush which produces result similar to Shooter's Choice without the odor. The first shot flyers have disappeared, and my rifles shoot to consistent POI.

I will add that C4 does an outstanding job of removing carbon and I like the odorless aspect of this solvent. I suspect the reason for the similar performance is that like Shooter's Choice, it removes some copper but not all of it.

I'm in the East myself, I'm the issue when I miss PERIOD! I don't shoot my best grouping load in my 223 nor my 6MM Remington, I shoot a compromising load, 1 1/8" to 1 1/16" average at 300 yards but 400 to 500 FPS faster than my best grouping loads which came in at about an inch, with the 223 rarely would the wind cooperate at that range. Boosting the velocity produced better wind deflection. The higher velocities help with the now terraced farm fields, the eddy currents in the wind is sometimes like skipping a rock over a pond.

If you use an electron microscope on a sectioned barrel you'll see texture. Moly and copper applied under pressure can fill that texture. I'm thinking it's a balance, too much and too little can be accuracy issues.

Moly can be as bad or worse than copper fouling if you'renot careful, however my varmint rigs run very hot, 6MM SAAMI is 65,000 PSI, the 223 runs way out of SAAMI at 64,000+ PSI. Velocity is 3,900 FPS for both, a 75 grain and 40 grain respectively. With these hyper velocities without moly I'd get 10 shots at best. With moly I've tested out to 25 shots before cleaning and saw no accuracy issues so I just clean after I shoot.

 

[INTJ]

Most cleaning methods give good results if they are arrived at thoughtfully, systematically, and consistently. As far as nylon brushes go, the Iosso blue nylon brushes used with Iosso bore cleaner are extremely effective. Just don't use Iosso more than say every 200 rounds.

Also, each barrel will tell you how it wants to be cleaned. Right now I am shooting a Bartlein LG barrel in 6mm and a Benchmark HG barrel in 30 cal. Both can be cleaned to carbon free with a bronze brush and a carbon cleaner. First two I have ever had that cleaned that easily. Most of my barrels need Iosso every now and then to keep the hard carbon out.

 

[drop_point]

There is talk of high quality bore brushes and them not all being the same. What is everybody's recommendation as to the highest quality brush?

 

[Bronsin]

I have found that a 2 to 1 mix of Butch's/Kroil does a really good job of staying ahead of fouling if used between groups with just a few patches, and only 1 fouler is needed. It goes right back to shooting to POA. Have tried other oils and they took more shots to settle down.

 

[AckleymanII]

Makes sense - I can see how that could be of value as long as it's linked to performance. My issue was just cleaning to obtain a "good" borescope image without regards to performance results.

Just last week at the range, a guy was shooting with top grade equipment, with tailored reloads. As a conversation ensued it became clear that he was very knowledgeable. He was shooting some very impressive groups at 200 yards. The topic of cleaning came up. I asked him his thoughts.

He showed me pictures of his bore taken from his bore scope after a thorough and aggressive carbon and copper removal cleaning of his target grade 6.5 Creedmoor that was done some time ago. He then told me that it took about 20 to 30 rounds for the POI and groups to settle it which supported the idea of establishing 'copper equilibrium'. This led him to backing off the aggressive copper removal as part of his cleaning process which produced more consistent groups and POI.

This is similar to what I discovered in 2020 - 2021 when I began experiencing first shot flyers and the need to "season" the barrel before it would print a consistent POI after I began using Bore Tech Cu+2 after carbon cleaning with C4. Now I just use C4 with a bronze brush and at least on paper, I'm obtaining more consistent groups and POI.

Those barrels would be in my scrap bin to make parts out of. At one time, I used to shoot 24-26,000 rounds a year on p. dogs, ground squirrels, and jack rabbits with top drawer barrels and reamers used on BR rigs. Even my 6 PPC with 8000 rounds on it and my 6 BR with almost the same round counts did not show traits of needing a bunch of rounds to settle in...3 rounds total to settle down on a barrel that was incredibly fire cracked, lands washed out. A barrel vise was welded to my Grill Guard on my Pick up truck for changing barrels in the field.

I had a 303 British that was sporterized from WWII, and the barrel was horrific with pits, but in 5 shots it was shooting 3/4" with hand loads tailored for the barrel.

I suspect that the shooter may need a bunch of rounds to settle in, heavy oil in the barrel, or the barrel is not uniform from front to back with tight and loose spots in the bore dia. Last time I saw barrels take 20 or more shots to settle down was on old Ruger #1s and old Ruger tang safety rifles were Bill Ruger had only invested $19 in the barrel...terrible barrels.

I also suspect that many people that many people would never consider a wind flag to see how conditions
were tearing up their groups and point of impact over time. Conditions could stabilize for a while, giving the shooter the impression that his barrel was seasoned enough to be consistent.

 

[AckleymanII]

I have found that a 2 to 1 mix of Butch's/Kroil does a really good job of staying ahead of fouling if used between groups with just a few patches, and only 1 fouler is needed. It goes right back to shooting to POA. Have tried other oils and they took more shots to settle down.

Try running a patch or two of lighter fluid down the bore prior to shooting to get rid of a bunch of oil in the barrel.

 

[ben lurkin]

Be sure to take a magnet to your bronze wool! Some of the stuff being imported is nothing more than brass plated steel wool! You don’t want to be accidentally running that down your barrel.

 

[David Milisock]

There is talk of high quality bore brushes and them not all being the same. What is everybody's recommendation as to the highest quality brush?

What makes a brush a quality brush? That's the question.

 

[Dave M.]

I'm one who has shot since I was old enough to carry a rifle on my own, but, have only recently began to shoot on a more serious, and longer range basis, thus the topic of "how to properly clean your rifle" naturally came with my relatively new revelation with shooting. I'm one who has let my barrels go far too long without properly cleaning (hoppe's #9) and have to deal with copper buildup and carbon rings. I appreciate all the insight here guys, I'll be learning till the end most likely.

You will learn more on this site than you can possibly imagine. Rifle cleaning is a hot topic button on this site. Lots of voodoo mixes that state you can squirt or patch it in, and everything is fixed like new. Personally, I feel nothing beats a little elbow grease, bronze brushes and keeping up with cleaning. Make sure you are using top notch cleaning rods, brushes, jags, patches and most importantly, a bore guide specifically made for your action and caliber.
Dave

 

[Dave M.]

What makes a brush a quality brush? That's the question.

I like the pro shot bronze and Iosso nylon brushes.
Dave

 

[David Milisock]

Those barrels would be in my scrap bin to make parts out of. At one time, I used to shoot 24-26,000 rounds a year on p. dogs, ground squirrels, and jack rabbits with top drawer barrels and reamers used on BR rigs. Even my 6 PPC with 8000 rounds on it and my 6 BR with almost the same round counts did not show traits of needing a bunch of rounds to settle in...3 rounds total to settle down on a barrel that was incredibly fire cracked, lands washed out. A barrel vise was welded to my Grill Guard on my Pick up truck for changing barrels in the field.

I had a 303 British that was sporterized from WWII, and the barrel was horrific with pits, but in 5 shots it was shooting 3/4" with hand loads tailored for the barrel.

I suspect that the shooter may need a bunch of rounds to settle in, heavy oil in the barrel, or the barrel is not uniform from front to back with tight and loose spots in the bore dia. Last time I saw barrels take 20 or more shots to settle down was on old Ruger #1s and old Ruger tang safety rifles were Bill Ruger had only invested $19 in the barrel...terrible barrels.

I also suspect that many people that many people would never consider a wind flag to see how conditions
were tearing up their groups and point of impact over time. Conditions could stabilize for a while, giving the shooter the impression that his barrel was seasoned enough to be consistent.

Wind is the challenge, reading wind in the farm fields today in my area is really tough. With my 223 I had many choices but with my twist, case capacity and accuracy needs (I only head shoot with the 223 out to 350) I went with limiting range and a hyper fast 40 grain. I've only taken 1 chuck a little past 400 with my 223 and I hit him in the head but that's not what I was aiming for so it was really a miss, a near no wind day. I limit my use of the 223 in wind and I limit it pretty low especially at 300+ yards. I've never seen the 223 with heavy projectiles used at ranges exceeding 400 yards to a high degree of effectiveness exempt against man sized targets. The trajectory is a rainbow and time of flight is awful in the wind.

The problem with working loads at 300 in light standard calibers is the wind, you get an inside range or you get lucky enough to put a few hours together with low wind.

 

[David Milisock]

I like the pro shot bronze and Iosso nylon brushes.
Dave

Why? For you, what makes them good .

 

[AckleymanII]

Not Dave M, but the Pro Shot have great bristles, wound tight on a good core, same with Dewey.

Iosso and Montana Extreme plastic brushes are TOUGH Brushes, great scrubbers.

 

[K22]

What makes a brush a quality brush? That's the question.

Brass core, looped ends, straight, and sized properly for the designed caliber - in other words - Dewey No Harm brushes.