On the subject of bronze brushes versus nylon.

[jelenko]

Personally, I think people shouldn't comment on cleaning procedures if they aren't checking with a borescope.

 

[LVLAaron]

Personally, I think people shouldn't comment on cleaning procedures if they aren't checking with a borescope.

Agreed. Borescope dictates what I do, and how much of it happens.

 

[wkdickinson]

Well I have two borescopes, a Lyman, which I have had for a number of years and I just purchased a Teslong, because I didn't think the Lyman was showing me what it should - actually I think the Lyman is better.

Anyway, I have been using Boretech Eliminator for the last few years, believing it was truly giving me a "clean" barrel. Today I took my 6.5 CM out to do some tuner testing (30 shots each of two different loads). When I got home I decide to clean the barrel (Bartlien 5R 1:8, 500 round +/-). Instead of using Eliminator, I used a few patches saturated with Ballistol, then 20 full strokes with a bronze brush. I have done that same thing for 6 or7 times and keep get patches that are BLACK, BLACK, BLACK! Obviously Eliminator isn't working and I am dealing with a very good barrel that has roughly 500 rounds down it. WOW!

I will let you know how many cycles it takes to actually get clean.

 

[David Milisock]

Personally, I think people shouldn't comment on cleaning procedures if they aren't checking with a borescope.

Well, that's similar to saying competition shooters should stay out of the field. BS is BS. Can you tell anyone the percentage difference in the field in accuracy between a spotless bore and one with moderate cleaning in a varmintgrade rifle?

Now explain to me or anyone how a person with a bore scope can ruin their bore by bad cleaning practices? It happens and we've read about it on this forum.

Experienced shooters shooting specific types of firearms for specific purposes benefit far more from practicing their field techniques then trying to get an additional 1/10" group improvement from a non-competion grade rifle by using a bore scope.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Personally, I think people shouldn't comment on cleaning procedures if they aren't checking with a borescope.

Really?
Here is a true story.
In the mid 2000’s, at the last NBRSA Nationals at Midland Tx, we had finished shooting the Unlimited portion, and Tuesday eave several of us were sitting around shooting the bull and the subject of barrel cleaning came up.

Everybody had an opinion. I told everybody I used nothing but Butches Bore Shine, and did nothing more than brush it with a bronze brush and then run however many soaked patches it took for them to come out clean Usually around six.

Everybody agreed that there was no way my barrels were “clean”..

A very well known shooter produced a borescope, and everybody volunteered to have him take a look at their barrels.

My barrel was dead on arrival. he claimed he could see copper, carbon, and gosh knows what else.He suggested a cleaning regiment and everything I needed to do to get it ready for the next morning‘s 100 yard LV.

I told him it was fine. I did my usual clean after the last practice and I wasn’t concerned.

All I did was go out and win the yardage the next morning with a .162 agg.

And I have won a heck of a lot since.

I have a borescope. All I use it for is to check the throats in my barrels I have just chambered to insure I did get it right.

Now, I know that many shooting disciplines are not like Short Range 100/200/300 yard Benchrest, where we are afforded time to load and clean after every relay. We keep our barrels clean by never letting things get out of hand, whether at practice or in a Match.

 

[K22]

Personally, I think people shouldn't comment on cleaning procedures if they aren't checking with a borescope.

I respectfully disagree. In my opinion it's all about performance results. If your cleaning procedure is producing the performance results that meets your standards, then I personally don't care what the inside of the bore looks like as long as it's not corroded or pitted.

What did high performance shooters do before there were borescopes?

In my opinion using harsh chemicals and abrasives to achieve a "borescope" clean bore is at best not necessary, at worst harmful. From personal experience, I learned the hard way that aggressive copper removal caused me all sorts of problems from first shot flyers to several shots being required to season the barrel so it would hold consistent POI and grouping.

But as I mentioned in a previous post, I'm not an "expert" or a championship competitor so if "borescope" clean allows you to sleep better at night or gives you confidence - go for it. Or in other words, if it works for you then by all means scrub the bore down to bare metal.

PS There has probably been more articles, opinions, theories, etc. written and published about "proper" rifle cleaning than any other subject.  so take your pick.

 

[BoydAllen]

Well, that's similar to saying competition shooters should stay out of the field. BS is BS. Can you tell anyone the percentage difference in the field in accuracy between a spotless bore and one with moderate cleaning in a varmintgrade rifle?

Now explain to me or anyone how a person with a bore scope can ruin their bore by bad cleaning practices? It happens and we've read about it on this forum.

Experienced shooters shooting specific types of firearms for specific purposes benefit far more from practicing their field techniques then trying to get an additional 1/10" group improvement from a non-competion grade rifle by using a bore scope.

Do you own a bore scope? The chief benefit of a bore scope is that it will show you when you need to do a little more, or different cleaning so that your barrel will actually come back to where you want it to be after cleaning. It does not dictate how to clean your bore. The shooter needs to make that decision based on his experience. It has been said many times, but it is worth repeating. If you are not using a bore scope, you are just guessing. The main thing that a bore scope will show that patches will not is what we call hard carbon which will fool you because it will give a white patch with normal cleaning procedures. I have a number of high grade barrels, and I do not want them to get so badly carboned up that I have to use cleaning methods that I prefer not to use. By catching problems very early, dealing with them is relatively easy. For many years the cost of a bore scope was too great for most shooters. Currently, with the Teslong scopes, that has changed drastically, to the point that anyone can afford one, the least expensive being $50 the last time that I looked.

 

[6.5 forever]

∆∆∆∆∆∆. This.
My ideas on barrel cleaning are continually evolving. It doesn't help I keep reading posts like this and watch you tube videos highlighting the cleaning procedures from top ranking shooters from ALL disciplines. I'm beginning to think that it doesn't matter your method as long as you feel confident in it.

My gunsmith is a high placing precision rifle shooter. His barrels are only cleaned once or twice during their lifetime.

I also remember Jerry Miculek saying that after cleaning, he always left his firearms wanting.....

I still use a borescope to see what is happening.....just because I can. Lol

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I treat everyone the same, doesn't matter if it's a 6bra or 338 lapua imp. Montana extreme copper killer (best carbon solvent I know of) and a bronze brush. 2 wet patches followed by 10 brush strokes, 2 or 3 cycles of that and I'm done. They get cleaned after every range session whether its 15 rounds or 50.

 

[David Milisock]

Do you own a bore scope? The chief benefit of a bore scope is that it will show you when you need to do a little more, or different cleaning so that your barrel will actually come back to where you want it to be after cleaning. It does not dictate how to clean your bore. The shooter needs to make that decision based on his experience. It has been said many times, but it is worth repeating. If you are not using a bore scope, you are just guessing. The main thing that a bore scope will show that patches will not is what we call hard carbon which will fool you because it will give a white patch with normal cleaning procedures. I have a number of high grade barrels, and I do not want them to get so badly carboned up that I have to use cleaning methods that I prefer not to use. By catching problems very early, dealing with them is relatively easy. For many years the cost of a bore scope was too great for most shooters. Currently, with the Teslong scopes, that has changed drastically, to the point that anyone can afford one, the least expensive being $50 the last time that I looked.

If people want to have a bore scope go for it, it's America. In my experience giving a stupid person a tool many times produces dubious results. My evidence exists on this forum where people with bore scopes have wiped away their lands.

My gunsmith has a scope and if I suspect and issue I'll get a professional to look at it. My 2 custom varmint rifles and my custom 35 magnum shoot really good 300 yard groups, all three average 1 1/8" to 1 1/16".

Before I moved to moly my varmint rifles experienced shot strings long enough to develop accuracy issues. I soaked them up with solvents to remove copper, then solvents to remove the solvents, then finished up cleaning and accuracy returned to normal, until the throats went bad. I surely didn't need a bore scope to know that 2,500+ rounds at 65,000 PSI had taken a toll on them. Moving to moly allows me to shoot shot string larger than required in the field.

My 35 magnum had 1 issue when I tried a projectile that was to soft for the velocity I was pushing. I didn't need a bore scope to tell me there was copper fouling. I used the same procedure as my varmint rigs and went back to my usual projectile and my accuracy returned.

I use nylon and bronze brushes, for their specific abrasive qualities and just to be considered a son of Satan I also use under sized steel brushes wrapped with patches to plug a chamber for soaking, then a nylon or bronze to scrub it.

 

[K22]

50 posts to date on this topic.

Many varied opinions. Check the net and your find an almost infinite number of approaches.

Most who post on here are experienced shooters. They are not the once-a-year sight the deer rifle guys. They spend a lot of time on the range and start to discover what works for them, their rifle, and their application. In other words, they begin to accumulate data and knowledge on their procedures and the performance results.

Aren't performance results the ultimate answer to which procedure is best for you?

Bottom line, I don't think there is an absolute answer to the "proper" way to clean a rifle except it has to be done so you don't harm the bore during the cleaning process or allow corrosion to take hold.

Sometimes we can get lost in the quagmire of theories and technology when all we are trying to do is hit the desired target area on a consistent basis which has many parameters for a successful shot, the most significant of which is the skill of the shooter.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Every process I do has gotten simpler. I used to do a long drawn out cleaning procedure, I used to have all the uniformers, annealers, tumblers, ext on the loading bench. As time went on I dropped different processes and tested for accuracy. I am shooting as well as I ever have if not better and my processes could not get any simpler. I dont enjoy time cleaning or time at the loading bench so I do what is needed for the results Im after and no more.

 

[dunraven]

Used to shoot with an army ranger, who was chambering Rock barrels. After turning one over to me he said: If I ever see you using a bronze brush on this barrel, I'll 'kick your ass'. FWIW.

 

[marchx]

The underlying ratoniale for choosing nylon brush instead of a bronze brush was intention not to damage the rifling. Since the myth was debunked by i.a. Dan Lilja, John Krieger and many top F-class or benchrest shooters, what's left of the dilemma is the usage of either solvent or abrasive paste in conjunction with a bronze brush. It happens that one cleaning cycle of BoreTech C4 Eliminator & bronze brush is not enough to do the job. So, some people tend to use a JB paste or similar product to remove the carbon. As far as I can see

j b paste

I read in your posts that j b works well. my experience with it has been good as well. I keep on getting told that the product will cause damage to my barrel. To me this does not make sense because carbon deposits left in the barrel would be imbedded into the softer copper bullet, causing it to...

forum.accurateshooter.com

there is rather a consensus that it's better to stick to the solvent& bronze brush and repeat the cleaning cycle (s) than to use an abrasive such as JB.

 

[JMayo]

I've shot 2 guns at ibs Score most of this year. A 30br and a 6ppc. My rest has to be reset up for each.
When there are only 2 relays there is very little time for cleaning. I don't think My scores have declined... If anything the rifles have told me what they are going to do already.
The ppc is a bit more finicky and I like to run a wet patch and a couple of dries down it after 30 or so shots.
The 30br just doesn't care. It'll go the whole match - 50 shots.
I do clean them well at home. But I'm not looking to have a like new .... Too much wear happens. Imo. brass brush used. Crud in corners is gone.... Black streeks still visable. .. c'est la vie


I'm not a cleaning aficionado but I think my scores speak for themselves allot of the time... The inconsistency of the nut on the butt in poa is my biggest problem

 

[BoydAllen]

The underlying ratoniale for choosing nylon brush instead of a bronze brush was intention not to damage the rifling. Since the myth was debunked by i.a. Dan Lilja, John Krieger and many top F-class or benchrest shooters, what's left of the dilemma is the usage of either solvent or abrasive paste in conjunction with a bronze brush. It happens that one cleaning cycle of BoreTech C4 Eliminator & bronze brush is not enough to do the job. So, some people tend to use a JB paste or similar product to remove the carbon. As far as I can see

j b paste

I read in your posts that j b works well. my experience with it has been good as well. I keep on getting told that the product will cause damage to my barrel. To me this does not make sense because carbon deposits left in the barrel would be imbedded into the softer copper bullet, causing it to...

forum.accurateshooter.com

there is rather a consensus that it's better to stick to the solvent& bronze brush and repeat the cleaning cycle (s) than to use an abrasive such as JB.

Careful use of a suitable abrasive will not harm a barrel. Those of us who have spent quite a bit of time using a bore scope know that hard carbon is not removed by chemicals and brushing, even with bronze. With the price of a bore scope being so low, anyone can afford one. Just because one has one does not mean that he has to clean to bare steel if that is not what gets the best result. I have seen more than one barrel stop shooting because of a hard carbon accumulation in the throat, and resume its former accuracy when it was CAREFULLY removed. Reading a few of the posts makes me wonder if the posters allow themselves the use of pointed scissors or sharp knives.

 

[K22]

Used to shoot with an army ranger, who was chambering Rock barrels. After turning one over to me he said: If I ever see you using a bronze brush on this barrel, I'll 'kick your ass'. FWIW.

Interesting - when I was in the Army the bronze brush was standard issue for cleaning the M 16. Of course, that was in the dark ages, 1970 - 1972.

Regardless, I would not mess with an Army Ranger - those are one tough guys.

 

[jackieschmidt]

One note.

Whether I am just practicing or at a Match, I never take a rifle home dirty.
after the final round, The first thing I do is clean it, preferably when it Is still warm.

 

[Brians356]

Careful use of a suitable abrasive will not harm a barrel.

What do you know about Corbin Benchrest Bore Cleaner? It's seldom if ever mentioned in this forum. I've got an old bottle, but have used it only a few times, never specifically for hard carbon removal. The label describes its particles as "smooth micro-discs".
-

 

[BoydAllen]

I suggest that you “Google” the product, and read the mfg. full description. Personally I would not clean with synthetic sapphire. IOSSO is my go to product, used infrequently, only when my bore scope tells me I need, and then with care. I have also used JB, but find IOSSO better for hard carbon.