Exporting brass?

[357Mag]

Interesting but this isn't Aussie. It's no problem to get a permit here, not that I bothered last time and they came straight through. But as you said, it's getting the stuff out of the US that's the issue. Stoopidest thing is this brass is Euro-made and available ( I use that term loosely..) all over the world.

Chris -

Howdy !

I myself tried sending brass to a NZ shooter on the South Island.

BEFORE did, I checked on shipping rules/legality w/ UPS, FEDEX, the U.S Dept of Commerce; and the
U.S. Postal Service. All assured me it was ok. So, I shipped.

Got a notice in the mail from U.S. Customs and Imigration that what I had done was in violation of " ITAR "
( International Traffic In Arms Regulation ). I was told that the empty brass cases w/ being held @ a regional
inspeciton site, and that I would be facing an interview w/ responsible authorities. The notice also said I had the option to surrender the cases @ the holding site, or request they be retained should I want to dispute the issue w/ Customs. I surrendered the cases in writing w/ signature, and was given a date / time for my interview.

BEFORE the meeting, I studied up on the ITAR reg's, and the definition of things... like the term "munitions ".
By definition... munitions are things like ammo, mortar rounds, bombs, missles & rockets; that are used by armies to wage war. The cases I shipped were empty, formed " wildcat " cases. Not " ammo " by dictionary
definition, and certainly not " loaded " ammo. And, the cases would not fit any exisiting rifle in the world; MIL or other wise. No matter....

Had to meet w/ 2 humorless men in suits & sunglasses during my lunch break from work. I did ask them to show me their IDs.... which they did. They asked to see mine, and I showed them my retired MIL ID .

When asked about my situation, I told them that I had shipped only after first checking w/ many ( thought to be ) reliable shipping experts. In response, the 2 agents were kind enough to point out my violation of ITAR
( again ), and said that they were only reviewing my case @ random. The asked me if I wanted the cases back, and I re-iterrated that I had surrendered the cases ( something I was sure they already knew ).

They took a pause, then w/ a smile the team leader said he'd be happy to send me the printed ITAR guidelines. This I took as my " just how stupid is he " quiz for the day, an d I was quick and definite that I had no interest in ever again trying to ship brass cases ( or anything else components related ).

They gave me a passing grade... my 1/2hr was up.... and I had to go back to work.

Got a nice letter from U.S. Customs a few months later, saying that my case was closed.


Sound like anything you want tor try ?


With regards,
357Mag

 

[TrxR]

Chris -

Howdy !

I myself tried sending brass to a NZ shooter on the South Island.

BEFORE did, I checked on shipping rules/legality w/ UPS, FEDEX, the U.S Dept of Commerce; and the
U.S. Postal Service. All assured me it was ok. So, I shipped.

Got a notice in the mail from U.S. Customs and Imigration that what I had done was in violation of " ITAR "
( International Traffic In Arms Regulation ). I was told that the empty brass cases w/ being held @ a regional
inspeciton site, and that I would be facing an interview w/ responsible authorities. The notice also said I had the option to surrender the cases @ the holding site, or request they be retained should I want to dispute the issue w/ Customs. I surrendered the cases in writing w/ signature, and was given a date / time for my interview.

BEFORE the meeting, I studied up on the ITAR reg's, and the definition of things... like the term "munitions ".
By definition... munitions are things like ammo, mortar rounds, bombs, missles & rockets; that are used by armies to wage war. The cases I shipped were empty, formed " wildcat " cases. Not " ammo " by dictionary
definition, and certainly not " loaded " ammo. And, the cases would not fit any exisiting rifle in the world; MIL or other wise. No matter....

Had to meet w/ 2 humorless men in suits & sunglasses during my lunch break from work. I did ask them to show me their IDs.... which they did. They asked to see mine, and I showed them my retired MIL ID .

When asked about my situation, I told them that I had shipped only after first checking w/ many ( thought to be ) reliable shipping experts. In response, the 2 agents were kind enough to point out my violation of ITAR
( again ), and said that they were only reviewing my case @ random. The asked me if I wanted the cases back, and I re-iterrated that I had surrendered the cases ( something I was sure they already knew ).

They took a pause, then w/ a smile the team leader said he'd be happy to send me the printed ITAR guidelines. This I took as my " just how stupid is he " quiz for the day, an d I was quick and definite that I had no interest in ever again trying to ship brass cases ( or anything else components related ).

They gave me a passing grade... my 1/2hr was up.... and I had to go back to work.

Got a nice letter from U.S. Customs a few months later, saying that my case was closed.


Sound like anything you want tor try ?


With regards,
357Mag

That's good info.

There are a few businesses that are licensed to export though.

 

[TrxR]

I'm in real need of some Lapua .284 brass. Last two boxes came from Reloading International who exported it here to New Zealand without hassle but they currently have none in stock.

Is anyone aware of an outfit that is able to do the same? There are three sellers who currently list the brass but don't offer foreign shipping.

Thanks for looking.

Have you tried any Canadian dealers? I'm not aware of any Canadian laws that would prohibit shipping to NZ . It would all have to do with your laws.

 

[6bra1k]

gentlemen, as the poster has proven,
cartridge brass is a commodity, and reguardless of shape or form, is a controlled export item.
so as brass cases you cannot ship on your own out of the USA.
USA rule

 

[michaeljp65]

Interesting but this isn't Aussie. It's no problem to get a permit here, not that I bothered last time and they came straight through. But as you said, it's getting the stuff out of the US that's the issue. Stoopidest thing is this brass is Euro-made and available ( I use that term loosely..) all over the world.

Chris, cant you neck up 6.5-284 brass? several shops in OZ are selling 6.5-284 lapua.

 

[ChrisNZ]

Possibly but don't want to go there again with converting 6.5 brass. Despite inside and outside turning, the donut re-emerges with ease.

Thanks TrxR for the suggestion but a search didn't reveal any in Canada. I actually have rellies there if it came to it. From my experience of buying an AnD 120i, Canuck freight costs are as bad as US ones..

Yes 357Mag, those ITAR regs as enforced are a total crock of sh!t in our context. What idiots. It's interesting that of the 4-5 trips I've done in recent years to the US, the last about 3 yrs ago, each time I brought back projectiles and various other shooting stuff in my luggage. Virtually every time, the ?TSA (luggage checkers) spotted it, opened my case and then closed it, leaving a std note saying "Inspected by..". They just let it through. I've brought maybe 2000 projs and a heap of other stuff back home.

 

[TrxR]

Possibly but don't want to go there again with converting 6.5 brass. Despite inside and outside turning, the donut re-emerges with ease.

Thanks TrxR for the suggestion but a search didn't reveal any in Canada. I actually have rellies there if it came to it. From my experience of buying an AnD 120i, Canuck freight costs are as bad as US ones..

Yes 357Mag, those ITAR regs as enforced are a total crock of sh!t in our context. What idiots. It's interesting that of the 4-5 trips I've done in recent years to the US, the last about 3 yrs ago, each time I brought back projectiles and various other shooting stuff in my luggage. Virtually every time, the ?TSA (luggage checkers) spotted it, opened my case and then closed it, leaving a std note saying "Inspected by..". They just let it through. I've brought maybe 2000 projs and a heap of other stuff back home.

Your right my go to places for Lapua have no 284 in stock but they have 6.5-284 one place is saying Canadian orders only at this time.

 

[sneakboxer]

Funniest thing- I live in Hawkes Bay too! I'm in the NZ Team for the Worlds so the need is real.

Hope I don't have to chase you up on that offer.

Just thinking out loud here. Have you contacted Lapua HQ? It would not hurt to call/email them starting you are on a national team and in need of their brass. Maybe they could pull some strings for you. Sounds like some good PR for Lapua to me. Best of luck

 

[243winxb]

If they do guns, would brass be that hard? List- https://www.gunbroker.com/c/user/dealerinternational/

 

[ChrisNZ]

I'd imagine if these exporting agents charged as much for forwarding components as they do for handling guns, we'd be looking at $10 a round by the time they see my rifle.

Yeh, might go through the motions of asking Lapua direct. No harm I guess but I won't be holding my breath.

 

[Tesoro]

Chris -

Howdy !

I myself tried sending brass to a NZ shooter on the South Island.

BEFORE did, I checked on shipping rules/legality w/ UPS, FEDEX, the U.S Dept of Commerce; and the
U.S. Postal Service. All assured me it was ok. So, I shipped.

Got a notice in the mail from U.S. Customs and Imigration that what I had done was in violation of " ITAR "
( International Traffic In Arms Regulation ). I was told that the empty brass cases w/ being held @ a regional
inspeciton site, and that I would be facing an interview w/ responsible authorities. The notice also said I had the option to surrender the cases @ the holding site, or request they be retained should I want to dispute the issue w/ Customs. I surrendered the cases in writing w/ signature, and was given a date / time for my interview.

BEFORE the meeting, I studied up on the ITAR reg's, and the definition of things... like the term "munitions ".
By definition... munitions are things like ammo, mortar rounds, bombs, missles & rockets; that are used by armies to wage war. The cases I shipped were empty, formed " wildcat " cases. Not " ammo " by dictionary
definition, and certainly not " loaded " ammo. And, the cases would not fit any exisiting rifle in the world; MIL or other wise. No matter....

Had to meet w/ 2 humorless men in suits & sunglasses during my lunch break from work. I did ask them to show me their IDs.... which they did. They asked to see mine, and I showed them my retired MIL ID .

When asked about my situation, I told them that I had shipped only after first checking w/ many ( thought to be ) reliable shipping experts. In response, the 2 agents were kind enough to point out my violation of ITAR
( again ), and said that they were only reviewing my case @ random. The asked me if I wanted the cases back, and I re-iterrated that I had surrendered the cases ( something I was sure they already knew ).

They took a pause, then w/ a smile the team leader said he'd be happy to send me the printed ITAR guidelines. This I took as my " just how stupid is he " quiz for the day, an d I was quick and definite that I had no interest in ever again trying to ship brass cases ( or anything else components related ).

They gave me a passing grade... my 1/2hr was up.... and I had to go back to work.

Got a nice letter from U.S. Customs a few months later, saying that my case was closed.


Sound like anything you want tor try ?


With regards,
357Mag

Obviously you didnt hide them well enough. Didnt you pass your camouflage course in the military?!!

 

[357Mag]

Obviously you didnt hide them well enough. Didnt you pass your camouflage course in the military?!!

Tesoro -

Howdy !

They screen shipments using some fairly sofisticated devices. Thinly-veiled attempts to " hide " items would only heighten their suspicions of one's actual intent ( to cirumvent the law for example ).

I put 37yr in the Military. Wore camoflage BDUs for the last couple of decades I was in.
They offered 3 sizes...... Large.......too Large...... and w-a-y to Large !

Was never required to do any formal study on camoflage and its uses.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[SGK]

Chris -

Howdy !

I myself tried sending brass to a NZ shooter on the South Island.

BEFORE did, I checked on shipping rules/legality w/ UPS, FEDEX, the U.S Dept of Commerce; and the
U.S. Postal Service. All assured me it was ok. So, I shipped.

Got a notice in the mail from U.S. Customs and Imigration that what I had done was in violation of " ITAR "
( International Traffic In Arms Regulation ). I was told that the empty brass cases w/ being held @ a regional
inspeciton site, and that I would be facing an interview w/ responsible authorities. The notice also said I had the option to surrender the cases @ the holding site, or request they be retained should I want to dispute the issue w/ Customs. I surrendered the cases in writing w/ signature, and was given a date / time for my interview.

BEFORE the meeting, I studied up on the ITAR reg's, and the definition of things... like the term "munitions ".
By definition... munitions are things like ammo, mortar rounds, bombs, missles & rockets; that are used by armies to wage war. The cases I shipped were empty, formed " wildcat " cases. Not " ammo " by dictionary
definition, and certainly not " loaded " ammo. And, the cases would not fit any exisiting rifle in the world; MIL or other wise. No matter....

Had to meet w/ 2 humorless men in suits & sunglasses during my lunch break from work. I did ask them to show me their IDs.... which they did. They asked to see mine, and I showed them my retired MIL ID .

When asked about my situation, I told them that I had shipped only after first checking w/ many ( thought to be ) reliable shipping experts. In response, the 2 agents were kind enough to point out my violation of ITAR
( again ), and said that they were only reviewing my case @ random. The asked me if I wanted the cases back, and I re-iterrated that I had surrendered the cases ( something I was sure they already knew ).

They took a pause, then w/ a smile the team leader said he'd be happy to send me the printed ITAR guidelines. This I took as my " just how stupid is he " quiz for the day, an d I was quick and definite that I had no interest in ever again trying to ship brass cases ( or anything else components related ).

They gave me a passing grade... my 1/2hr was up.... and I had to go back to work.

Got a nice letter from U.S. Customs a few months later, saying that my case was closed.


Sound like anything you want tor try ?


With regards,
357Mag

When was this? You should have asked for EXACTLY which ITAR rule was broken.

[This seems to be one of those areas where the US just plain gets stupid right. (Kind of like how I couldn't bring my wine collection with me when I moved here because of some draconian legislation dating back to prohibition.)]

All items under the control of ITAR are listed in the United States Munitions List.

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.federalregister.gov

There's also the jurisdiction of the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) which includes the Commerce Control List (CCL) administered by the US Department of Commerce but that doesn't seem to relate to firearms https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/regulations/commerce-control-list-ccl

"Part 121 - The United States Munitions List" has three categories. Cat I deals with firearms (anything up to 50 but not including 50 cal that are either automatic, use precision guidance or use "caseless ammunition" and, annoyingly for me when I moved, "(e) Silencers, mufflers, and sound suppressors" and so prevented me from importing my moderators which are encouraged in the UK.) Cat II is basically 50 cal and above and flame throwers etc.

While a "firearm is a weapon not over .50 caliber (12.7 mm) which is designed to expel a projectile by the deflagration of propellant", "caseless ammunition is firearm ammunition without a cartridge case that holds the primer, propellant, and projectile together as a unit." I would have thought the rifles we use, and the cartridge cases in question here, aren't firearms that use "caseless ammunition" but maybe I have that definition wrong. They would seem to me to in fact use ammunition that has a cartridge case which holds a primer, some propellant and a projectile. I assume I have this wrong?


Cartridge cases are referenced only in Category III - Ammunition and Ordnance
.
.
.
(d) Parts and components for the articles in this category, as follows: (my emphasis)

(7) Cartridge cases, powder bags, or combustible cases specially designed for the items controlled in USML Category II"

For there to be a restriction on the cartridge cases we use, Cat III (d) (7) would have to apply "cartridge cases" more generally than solely to those "specially designed for the items controlled in USML Category II" (ie which is basically being anything over 50 cal etc.) But I would read that clause to qualify each of "cartridge cases", "powder bags" and "combustible cases" by "specially designed for the items controlled in USML Category II".

 

[ChrisNZ]

Sounds like BAFT and associated folks don't let the actual law stand in the way of their arbitrary calls.

 

[6bra1k]

SO ONE MORE TIME
cartridge brass ALLOY, in form or not ,is a CONTROLLED EXPORT MATERIAL.

 

[SGK]

Point to the rule rather than shouting