What Causes F-Class 9s with no change in conditions?

[Tempest]

Was this the AEDC match this weekend? There was some pretty decent shifts in mirage/wind that the flags did not pick up. If you were at AEDC I suspect it may have been fishtailing winds/ let offs as the sun started heating up the Machine gun range off to the right. The range has been much trickier since they cleared that land and built the 800m machine gun range.

Chris, when did they clear the land?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Almost certainly a wind change that you didn't see. There is virtually never a true "no wind" condition, especially during the day. It's amazing how much a puff of wind that you cant feel will move a bullet at long range, and even short, but much worse as distance increases. Add to that, conditions are not the same all the way to the target as they are at the bench. Literally, it could be a wind that you couldn't feel and without some sort of flags, you couldn't see either.
Main point being, there is almost always wind, whether you see it on the flags or on your target..is a choice.
Always, always always use flags!

 

[coorslight]

the match was in New Hampshire, and to answer another question i don't use a level on my scope.

 

[M14AMU]

Probability of shot group!

 

[memilanuk]

i don't use a level on my scope.

Then there's a solid chance that the gun tilted ever so slightly, you shot a couple of 9s, then focused on your position a little bit more and straightened up the gun without realizing it.

Once upon a time, at a US team practice we were working on keeping a pair of shooters (and coaches) 'married up' so they could share information from one shot to the next. We were banging away X/X, X/X, X/X, X/10, X/10. My coach looked down at me and said 'level your gun'. I looked at the level, and the bubble was just touching one line. Not over to one side, just touching line - barely. I was more than a little skeptical, but did as directed and leveled the gun before my next shot. X/X, X/X, X/X. Didn't take much. If you don't even *have* a level...

 

[Dave M.]

Are e-targets really that far off? Has anyone ever done a test where they pulled E-Targets and compared shot location?

I have and they were amazingly accurate. I have zero doubt when I shoot on them now. If you doubt them put up a fresh target next time

 

[swd]

A change in conditions that was above your pay grade. It happens to all us mere mortals.. And it hurts even more when some extra High Master says the conditions were really easy to read.

 

[Rogmay]

All of the above causes 9’s! That’s why I like to shoot my 6 & 6.5 on calmer days, they have what I call “less action” on the gun for each shot! Granted on windy days you can throw that theory out the window, lol.

 

[kneedtospeed]

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I have and they were amazingly accurate. I have zero doubt when I shoot on them now. If you doubt them put up a fresh target next time

And... Our testing showed the exact opposite. I avoid matches using electronics.

 

[Medic505]

And... Our testing showed the exact opposite. I avoid matches using electronics.

That's a moot point Keith, it's all about cheese and crackers now.

 

[Dave M.]

And... Our testing showed the exact opposite. I avoid matches using electronics.

In a few years then you probably will have to stay home all together because there won’t be any target pulling going on…heck, there barely is now.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

That's a moot point Keith, it's all about cheese and crackers now.

What if... Oh, never mind.

They (e-targets) have already virtually destroyed the joy of the sport for me. I might have to pick up a new game.

But, what if I showed everyone how....

Nah, why would I evaporate delusions?

 

[XTR]

if it was at Nashua it could have been wind, the flags at Nashua are not particularly responsive in a lot of conditions, other times the ones on the right point left in a left to right from the wind bouncing off of the treeline.

If it was Keene, I haven't shot there enough to say for certain.

Could have been wind, could have been you.

I shoot F-TR not open, but when I get them they are at 3 o'clock. It doesn't happen often, but, every so often I get one that nobody else got.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

In a few years then you probably will have to stay home all together because there won’t be any target pulling going on…heck, there barely is now.

Other than SWN and Nationals, I only get one match a year where we get to have pulled targets.

I've considered doing an out-of-competition status at matches at the electronic ranges (they could use the monetary support), and shoot match-like practice. I just can't, in good conscience, drag my beloved sport down this hole. I know where it leads, and I hate the thought of it.

The old guys that know how to run a pulled match will disappear, and there will be no going back. I just wonder if anyone is looking at the abysmal attendance numbers since these systems became all the rage?

 

[memilanuk]

We're getting a ways off topic... but I'm reasonably certain that e-targets have cost me less points than inattentive/lazy scorers or target pullers over the years. As a match director, I know they cause me fewer migraines than the aging and rickety target carriers and berms at our local range. Having (re)built more than a few target frames and faces using the four-piece full-face targets, I know those things are way less consistent and perfect than most competitors seem to think.

Are e-targets perfect? Not even a little. Are they an improvement over an antiquated system? In my opinion, absolutely.

 

[CA_Shooter]

A flinch. Oh, um, I mean shooter error.

We all flinch given the correct stimuli. The trick is to eliminate the things that stimulate the response and train it out.

What did the trace look like on those errant shots? Did it take a curve?

Do you zoom out so you can see trace? And then use it to inform you about the wind/conditions?

 

[ebb]

gas?

 

[Titan]

Other than SWN and Nationals, I only get one match a year where we get to have pulled targets.

I've considered doing an out-of-competition status at matches at the electronic ranges (they could use the monetary support), and shoot match-like practice. I just can't, in good conscience, drag my beloved sport down this hole. I know where it leads, and I hate the thought of it.

The old guys that know how to run a pulled match will disappear, and there will be no going back. I just wonder if anyone is looking at the abysmal attendance numbers since these systems became all the rage?

Speaking for attendence at our local club e targets have raised participation in F Class matches. I believe your observations as to tanking participation in the sport has more to due with ammunition component cost and availability, to raise participation locally we adopted a low round count format to lessen the cost/difficulty of participating in the current component market.

Back to the topic of low attendance at the US Nationals last one I shot was in Phoenix and I won't be back this year, I can't find 7mm bullets to practice with or enough to compete in the long range match format.

 

[D-4297]

Got to experience this "Phenomenon" a couple weeks ago at BA , while shooting next to a very High level Lady shooter . We were jokingly matching X's , shot for shot , and conditions were very calm and sedate . Six X's into the string , we both shot seconds apart , and both had 9's at 9:00 o'clock . Three more X's later , it happened again . To both of us . 9's at 9 o'clock . This occurred one more time in "Our" string , and we both dropped Three , with no real explanation . Other than there was some wind out there we just couldn't see , as the flags gave no indication of any change . She is a HM , and was shooting a .284 , and I am a Master , and was shooting a .308 . Sometimes ; stuff just happens .