Pierced Primers on 2nd Firing - New Build

[Drop Port]

Hornady #9. It does not list the ELD.

I did note that it has different max charges for H4350 @ 40.9 and IMR 4350 @ 41.5.

Hodgdon also has different max loads for both.

Again not a big deal, but it shows that the load might be closer to the high end of things than you expect. Different components, chambers etc.

Kind of looking at all possibilities. Note post #16 by Nick Caprinolo, never an issue. You really get this argument with AR 15 shooters using 400’s.

I shoot a lot of antiques, smokeless loads in original blackpowder cartridge rifles. Using low pressure rated primers, such as a Remington 1 1/2, is very helpful. One to insure the weak hammers can set them off. But also having a primer flatten at 30,000 psi helps keep loads safe.

Primer construction and limits are good info to have and use to your advantage.

This is very good advice on soft primers. Anyone who's loaded small cartridge, 17 squirrel etc knows how fast pressure will appear and bite you in the ass. soft primers come in handy for monitoring load work up.

 

[Bocephus]

Hi guys, I know there are a bunch of threads on here about this, but I think this might be a stumper. I posted other pics a month or so ago of a 6.5 Creedmoor build I did working off a Savage 12 action. I ordered 100 pieces of new small rifle primer Lapua brass for competition use just for this build. I also purchased a Redding S-Type FL Bushing die set, including the match seating die (very nice upgrade, by the way). Before first firing, I FL sized the brass and ran the expander through each piece to make the first seating in this brass possibly more consistent. Worked up some loads, then practice rounds based on a fairly mild load of 40.9gr. H4350 pushing a 140 ELDM. Fired all 100 pieces of brass once. Noticed a little primer cratering, but nothing too crazy. Note, these were CCI 400 primers.

Decided this load shot well enough for now, and loaded all 100 cases up the same as the first firing. So, I started my day today with brass that was about to be shot for a second time. The only difference is, today, I experienced a TON of pierced primers, and those tiny bits of primers getting blown into my bolt, causing misfires and a load of frustration. Temps between the first firing and today were all roughly the same, no huge temp changes. Any ideas on why my rifle was piercing primers today, on the second firing of this brass, and not on the first firing? I'm trying to figure out what caused this, and find a solution. I could definitely try a different primer, if I can find them, but I feel like that's just a bandaid, not a true fix.

The shoot went fairly well for a greenhorn, I placed 11th out of 46 shooters.

Lots of good opinions. Please post the “rest of the story” when the mystery is “sol-ved.”

 

[divingin]

What edition Hornady book are you looking at? My 10th edition lists 41.5gr H4350 as max for the 140 ELDM. I guess I never really thought about the pressure ratings on primers, but that makes a lot of sense. I've completely stripped and cleaned the bolt, and everything really looked pretty good, aside from being absolutely filthy with carbon.

Started at the front row, working back. Each string was a string of six shots, fired within 3 minutes, then about an hour wait my your next shots.

Hodgdon's online data shows max loads as 40.0(C) for the 140 AMAX and 40.4 for an SFT A-Frame (whatever that is.) Those were both in LRP Hornady brass.


Upon punching your components into Gordon's Reloading Tool, the pressure was much less using your actual bullet than what came up with the AMAX. Around 51K psi, which is reasonable. The same load with the AMAX was pushing the max pressure spec.

 

[danny]

Hi guys, I know there are a bunch of threads on here about this, but I think this might be a stumper. I posted other pics a month or so ago of a 6.5 Creedmoor build I did working off a Savage 12 action. I ordered 100 pieces of new small rifle primer Lapua brass for competition use just for this build. I also purchased a Redding S-Type FL Bushing die set, including the match seating die (very nice upgrade, by the way). Before first firing, I FL sized the brass and ran the expander through each piece to make the first seating in this brass possibly more consistent. Worked up some loads, then practice rounds based on a fairly mild load of 40.9gr. H4350 pushing a 140 ELDM. Fired all 100 pieces of brass once. Noticed a little primer cratering, but nothing too crazy. Note, these were CCI 400 primers.

Decided this load shot well enough for now, and loaded all 100 cases up the same as the first firing. So, I started my day today with brass that was about to be shot for a second time. The only difference is, today, I experienced a TON of pierced primers, and those tiny bits of primers getting blown into my bolt, causing misfires and a load of frustration. Temps between the first firing and today were all roughly the same, no huge temp changes. Any ideas on why my rifle was piercing primers today, on the second firing of this brass, and not on the first firing? I'm trying to figure out what caused this, and find a solution. I could definitely try a different primer, if I can find them, but I feel like that's just a bandaid, not a true fix.

The shoot went fairly well for a greenhorn, I placed 11th out of 46 shooters.

I experienced something like this in two Hornets one time. What were the particulars with your sizing for the second reload?

Danny

 

[JFrank]

Many of the primers appear flat indicating to me that they were blown back against the bolt face. Many times the firing pin will "bounce", for lack of a better term, piercing the already thin primer cups. I would check your headspace compared to new brass, and seat into the lands
.010 or so, to hold things in place for the first firing. Check your firing pin tip for damage. Good luck!

This sounds correct

 

[Rsadams]

CCI 400 will flatten even at mild loads... Now if your running a close to hot load a few degrees will or can push it over the edge....I use 400 in my .223 because I have plenty of them but they do flatten.... Try another primer... Of course right now that can be hard to do... Only resize the min you need for good bolt close...

 

[lazyMlazyK]

I experienced something like this in two Hornets one time. What were the particulars with your sizing for the second reload?

Danny

Nothing too crazy - I haven't found how long I can let the brass get without trimming yet, so I didn't trim, but the longest length I saw was around 1.913" (I know trim length is 1.92"). Shoulders measured 1.56"-1.561" from base after first firing. Bumped them back to 1.585" for second firing. Necks were bushed to have 0.003" of tension, which I verified.

 

[lazyMlazyK]

I still cannot get my head around firing more than 2 cases with blown out primers .
I would be bushing firing pin hole and reprofiling firing pin

I was at my first competition and there was NO WAY I was going to back out of it

 

[beemanjohn]

Lots of answers, and not one nailed the real problem. Your gun is a Savage. Savage rifles have a firing pin hole that is way too big for the size of the pin. Get in touch with Grimstod Desh (@Grimstod ) and have a bushing put in your bolt. He is famous around Savage shooters for his bolt work. Don't want to believe that? Just go to a Savage forum and ask about Savage bolts needing a bushing job.
BTW, I have used him to bush three bolts for me, and he does great work and has a fast turn around time.

 

[Ringostar]

Why did you size the cases back? Don’t do this unless they’re tight to recharger after firing. You possibly have too much play. Your bolt should be bushed and firing pin cleaned up now. I haven’t looked up load data, but as someone else mentioned. H4350 and IMR4350 are not the same. Be sure of what loads that you’re looking at. I have a Rem 700 in 6.5x47L. It craters the primers every time. It should be bushed also, but I’m not running hot loads so haven’t been blanking primers. When I get a new barrel for it, I’m going back to a large primer cartridge.

 

[JFrank]

Nothing too crazy - I haven't found how long I can let the brass get without trimming yet, so I didn't trim, but the longest length I saw was around 1.913" (I know trim length is 1.92"). Shoulders measured 1.56"-1.561" from base after first firing. Bumped them back to 1.585" for second firing. Necks were bushed to have 0.003" of tension, which I verified.

I’m confused, are you saying the virgin brass measured 1.56 then grew to 1.561 followed by sizing back to a greater number 1.585 ?

 

[lazyMlazyK]

I’m confused, are you saying the virgin brass measured 1.56 then grew to 1.561 followed by sizing back to a greater number 1.585 ?

My bad, should have been one more 5 in there. 1.5585" is what I meant. I didn't have the comparator when the brass was virgin, so I'm not sure what the base-to-shoulder measurement was before the first firing. I could try checking the measurement on my dummy round though, but I'm unsure if I sized that or not...I need to take better notes.

 

[Bc'z]

I’m confused, are you saying the virgin brass measured 1.56 then grew to 1.561 followed by sizing back to a greater number 1.585 ?

Die ain't set right causing it to lengthen brass

 

[lazyMlazyK]

Why did you size the cases back? Don’t do this unless they’re tight to recharger after firing. You possibly have too much play. Your bolt should be bushed and firing pin cleaned up now. I haven’t looked up load data, but as someone else mentioned. H4350 and IMR4350 are not the same. Be sure of what loads that you’re looking at. I have a Rem 700 in 6.5x47L. It craters the primers every time. It should be bushed also, but I’m not running hot loads so haven’t been blanking primers. When I get a new barrel for it, I’m going back to a large primer cartridge.

I'm very aware that H4350 and IMR4350 are not the same, and load data is not interchangeable. I only use H4350 data.

I wanted to bump the shoulders back to ensure they would chamber in case there was any dirt or debris that found it's way into the chamber throughout the day at the match.

I'm looking into options now to have the bolt head bushed and firing pin inspected.

 

[JFrank]

Die ain't set right causing it to lengthen brass

That could be a country western song.

Sounds like excessive headspace to me but hey what do I know…

Stay tuned
J

 

[lazyMlazyK]

Since you have loaded unfired cartridges, pull the bullets and recheck your powder load.

What I see is most likely a bold and firing pin problem. It appears to me that many of your primers show they are being struck off center and others are exactly on center. Further, most of your primers are cratered which can be caused by a sloppy firing pin hole in the bolt. You may need to have your bolt sleeved. I have been using CCI 400 small rifle primers in my Lapua 6.5 brass for several years and have never experienced a problem. When I save never, I mean not one time. You have no need for magnum primer in this caliber.

Thanks Nick. Is your bolt bushed?

 

[JFrank]

I would ask the more experienced guys about all this soot on the necks, or at least keep your note book handy as you dial in your cartridge base to the preferred shoulder datum this may start to look more as a sinn wave.

 

[lazyMlazyK]

View attachment 1333073
I would ask the more experienced guys about all this soot on the necks, or at least keep your note book handy as you dial in your cartridge base to the preferred shoulder datum this may start to look more as a sinn wave.

I'm confused - what might start to look like a sine wave?

 

[JFrank]

I'm confused - what might start to look like a sine wave?

I’ll try and find an example and get back to you.

Might not have the best example here but the soot line gets a wave look around the neck you can see where the carbon blows around a bolt lug area.
I relate the topic to how the brass is sealing the chamber /neck

 

[deadidarren]

Lots of answers, and not one nailed the real problem. Your gun is a Savage. Savage rifles have a firing pin hole that is way too big for the size of the pin. Get in touch with Grimstod Desh (@Grimstod ) and have a bushing put in your bolt. He is famous around Savage shooters for his bolt work. Don't want to believe that? Just go to a Savage forum and ask about Savage bolts needing a bushing job.
BTW, I have used him to bush three bolts for me, and he does great work and has a fast turn around time.

You might want to read post 16 , he used the wrong word sleeved instead of bushed