What's next?

[JFrank]

Thiunking back, mirage was just starting to come up toward the end of the shooting session, right about the 31.6 - 32.0 groups, and I may not have accopunted for it well.

The 32.2 grop was better. The re-test will tell me what's really going on, hopefully.

Can we back up just for a moment to review the .266 bushing, amp annealing and the lack of consistency prior to the deed.

Q- are these necks turned ?
Q- what’s the OD of a loaded round ?
Q- what other bushings have you tested prior ?
Q- did you test other bushings prior to annealing?
Q- what were the results from those tests ?

Jim

 

[Dave M.]

So doing a ladder (?) test.

Here's details:

6 Dasher
28" Douglas bbl
0.2gr Varget increments, from 30.4 - 32.2 gr, in 3 shot groups
Seating depth: at lands.
105 Berger VLD's

Never really done load development this way b4. AMP annealed, 0.266 neck bushing, with 6mm mandrel gets me a pretty consistent 28 - 32 in-lbs seating force (I think I'm splainin that right) with WIlson chamber type seaters and K&M arbor press. . First 5 shots (top left) were 32.0 gr sight in / foulers. Interesting they got the exact same ES as the later 32.0 gr group (bottom right) . I'm thinking I got a good node at 31.8 gr with a pretty low SD / ES,. Group is not great but hoping adj seating depth / jump will fix that . THinking there might be another nde up around 32.4 - 32.6 gr but wanna avoid burning out my bbl too fast.

I plan on re-testing in 5 shot groups for 31.7, 31.8 and 31.9 gr groups to make sure it will repeat. Then doing seating depth testing to tighten up grps. Am I on the right track? What are you seeing here??
View attachment 1331164

Are you using a front rest and bags? These groups are nowhere near as good as most dasher groups I’ve seen. What distance are you shooting from?
Dave

 

[markT]

See #8....

 

[bozo699]

"Ultimate Reloader dude recommended 5 shot groups for each powder increment. I went with 3 to get a more accurate average speed."

The more shots fired, the more accurate the average speed.

Frank

Yes but five won’t get you there either. If it’s promising I’ll shoot more
Wayne

 

[GetReal]

Can we back up just for a moment to review the .266 bushing, amp annealing and the lack of consistency prior to the deed.

Q- are these necks turned ?
Q- what’s the OD of a loaded round ?
Q- what other bushings have you tested prior ?
Q- did you test other bushings prior to annealing?
Q- what were the results from those tests ?

Jim

Not turned necks. I'v tried 0.265 bushing, but moved to a mandrel to get consistent neck tension, and that's worked.

Beyond that, I'm just getting started in annealing / bushings / mandels so I'm on a learning curve w/r/t those specifically.

 

[GetReal]

This is a OCW test, not a ladder.
Adjusting your scope during test gives inconclusive results as your looking at POI across the charge weights.
A ladder is shot at 1 spot generally at distance, most guys using colored bullets to see overlap of charges, rise and fall.
I agree with @bozo699 if 2 ain't touching @100yards the 3rd ain't gonna make it any better.
I believe we're on the same page about UR also Gavin is more of a gear tester to me.
Follow Eric Cortina, Fclass John, or Keith Glasscock on boobtube for better information. These guys will help you a lot more in my opinion.

Sorry for misusing the term.

To clarify for ever'one....

I shot 3 rds NOT for groups, but for a reliable velocity #'s. UR recommended 5- shots of same load for velocity #'s but that seemed like overkill. He got low single digit SD's then tuned seating depth to get down to 0.20" c-t-c groups. I'm hoping for the same.

I know the groups (above) suck, and that 3 shots really isn't a group. I go with a minimum of 5 shots that repeat at least twice on different days before I'm done testing. Again, just to be clear.... I wasn't shooting for groups above. I was shooting for velocity #'s and wanted 3 to get a reliable averages as well as SD / ES data.

 

[GetReal]

Appreciate all the help. I lurnin' .... its like goin' to skuul, but fer free...

 

[GetReal]

Are you using a front rest and bags? These groups are nowhere near as good as most dasher groups I’ve seen. What distance are you shooting from?
Dave

Front and rear sand bags. 100 yds. I'm not shooting for groups yet. Haven't played with seating depth at all. For this intial test, I was looking for avg velocity and low SD.

I'm told this is called (and I should have called it) an OCW test.

I apologize for any confusion.

 

[alleycat]

Alpha non turned neck,neck sized .268 bushing,.274 neck Brux barrel,CCI 450, 32.5 grs. Varget,Berger 105 VLD Hunting bullet, 0.011 into the lands ( light land contact) loaded & shot as a single shot is working well for me. Best of luck getting a tune your pleased with.

 

[JFrank]

Not turned necks. I'v tried 0.265 bushing, but moved to a mandrel to get consistent neck tension, and that's worked.

Beyond that, I'm just getting started in annealing / bushings / mandels so I'm on a learning curve w/r/t those specifically.

Sounds like you have about three things going at the same time.

 

[GetReal]

Sounds like you have about three things going at the same time.

Or more.

To my understanding, annealing makes the brass consistently workable to get consistent neck tension. The bushing shrinks the expanded (to chamber size) neck down enuf to actually hold a bullet. The mandrel upsizes the internal case neck to a consistent I.D. to get consistent neck tension. As such (so I am told) you don't need to neck turn as the mandrel gave you the consistent I.D. for conssitent neck tension.

That's my understanding anyway. And I'm getting 26-32 in-lb seating pressure this way. And some good single digit velocity S.D.s

 

[rebeltex]

Why not shoot every test like you intend to put them in the same hole?
I understand OCW tests to find velocity nodes but why not see what kind of accuracy you are getting at the same time?

 

[Bc'z]

@GetReal
Have you thought about using a bushing that better suits your desired neck tension and not using a mandrel at all?
Another thing to think about is that there is no set standard on tension, hence a test is in order.
Initially I'll stat my load development with a bushing in the middle ground so to speak.
Example: for my .264 calibers I'll start with a .288 after my charge weight and seating depth is finished I'll load 3 each from .286-.290 bushings and shoot groups. Sometimes I'll find that with a chosen powder and bullet combination less or more tension will give more precision to a load that was already accurate.

 

[GetReal]

Have you thought about using a bushing that better suits your desired neck tension and not using a mandrel at all?
Another thing to think about is that there is no set standard on tension, hence a test is in order.
Initially I'll stat my load development with a bushing in the middle ground so to speak.
Example: for my .264 calibers I'll start with a .288 after my charge weight and seating depth is finished I'll load 3 each from .286-.290 bushings and shoot groups. Sometimes I'll find that with a chosen powder and bullet combination less or more tension will give more precision to a load that was already accurate.

As I understand it (i could be wrong) unless I turn my necks (and I prefer not to) the bushing (which is outside the neck) will result in different neck I.D.s based on the thickness of the neck wall. The mandel eliminates this. I've tested that and it works. I get consistent neck tension using the AMP annealer and the 6mm mandrel.

Turning the neck and using a bushing ultimately does the same thing as using a mandrel alone - gets a consistent neck I.D. and neck tension.

As I mentioned ... I'm not even done with powder charge testing....never mind seating depth testing to find the group size I want.

If that doesn't work, I'll try a custom mandrel to increase / decrease neck tenson. If that doesn't work I'll throw the rifle in trash and take up knitting.

 

[Bc'z]

As I understand it (i could be wrong) unless I turn my necks (and I prefer not to) the bushing (which is outside the neck) will result in different neck I.D.s based on the thickness of the neck wall. The mandel eliminates this. I've tested that and it works. I get consistent neck tension using the AMP annealer and the 6mm mandrel.

Turning the neck and using a bushing ultimately does the same thing as using a mandrel alone - gets a consistent neck I.D. and neck tension.

As I mentioned ... I'm not even done with powder charge testing....never mind seating depth testing to find the group size I want.

If that doesn't work, I'll try a custom mandrel to increase / decrease neck tenson. If that doesn't work I'll throw the rifle in trash and take up knitting.

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, as I'm trying to help you..

What if I told you that my 6.5cm brass isn't turned, I don't use a mandrel, bushing dies only and it shoots in the 1's consistently with 3 different loads using 2 different bullets, and no they aren't Berger or custom bullets.

 

[Dave M.]

Front and rear sand bags. 100 yds. I'm not shooting for groups yet. Haven't played with seating depth at all. For this intial test, I was looking for avg velocity and low SD.

I'm told this is called (and I should have called it) an OCW test.

I apologize for any confusion.

OCW (optimal charge weight) testing shouldn’t focus on ES/SD. Find a range of powder charge where the bullets all impact the same vertical POI (and ideally both vertical and horizontal). Those groups sizes are going make picking such a node very hard. I personally like to find a range of powder charges where the POI is almost the same and then further refine the seating depth from there.
I’d be happy to walk you through the process but I think in order to truly show better accuracy you will need to stabilize you shooting platform.
PM me if you want to discuss more.
Dave

 

[bozo699]

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, as I'm trying to help you..

What if I told you that my 6.5cm brass isn't turned, I don't use a mandrel, bushing dies only and it shoots in the 1's consistently with 3 different loads using 2 different bullets, and no they aren't Berger or custom bullets.

I really liked your other post you hit the nail on the head there!… this one too!…you can’t help someone if they know more than you to start with.
Wayne

 

[Dave M.]

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, as I'm trying to help you..

What if I told you that my 6.5cm brass isn't turned, I don't use a mandrel, bushing dies only and it shoots in the 1's consistently with 3 different loads using 2 different bullets, and no they aren't Berger or custom bullets.

I also do not turn my necks on my dasher and only you a full length bushing die and NO MANDRELS. I think the OPs main issue is the inability to shoot off a really stable platform.

 

[Dave M.]

So doing a ladder (?) test.

Here's details:

6 Dasher
28" Douglas bbl
0.2gr Varget increments, from 30.4 - 32.2 gr, in 3 shot groups
Seating depth: at lands.
105 Berger VLD's

Never really done load development this way b4. AMP annealed, 0.266 neck bushing, with 6mm mandrel gets me a pretty consistent 28 - 32 in-lbs seating force (I think I'm splainin that right) with WIlson chamber type seaters and K&M arbor press. . First 5 shots (top left) were 32.0 gr sight in / foulers. Interesting they got the exact same ES as the later 32.0 gr group (bottom right) . I'm thinking I got a good node at 31.8 gr with a pretty low SD / ES,. Group is not great but hoping adj seating depth / jump will fix that . THinking there might be another nde up around 32.4 - 32.6 gr but wanna avoid burning out my bbl too fast.

I plan on re-testing in 5 shot groups for 31.7, 31.8 and 31.9 gr groups to make sure it will repeat. Then doing seating depth testing to tighten up grps. Am I on the right track? What are you seeing here??
View attachment 1331164

Take special note of how little correlation there is between MV ES and group size. Velocity isn’t the end all be all.

 

[seymour fish]

Sorry for misusing the term.

To clarify for ever'one....

I shot 3 rds NOT for groups, but for a reliable velocity #'s. UR recommended 5- shots of same load for velocity #'s but that seemed like overkill. He got low single digit SD's then tuned seating depth to get down to 0.20" c-t-c groups. I'm hoping for the same.

I know the groups (above) suck, and that 3 shots really isn't a group. I go with a minimum of 5 shots that repeat at least twice on different days before I'm done testing. Again, just to be clear.... I wasn't shooting for groups above. I was shooting for velocity #'s and wanted 3 to get a reliable averages as well as SD / ES data.

Perhaps a contrarian opinion might be useful. 1) ditch the chronograph 2) load a proper One Shot Creighton Audette powder ladder 3) shoot it all holding the same POA.