A few days ago I loaded 130 eld match for 6.5 creedmoor with 41.5 gr of imr 4451, they shot great, about 1/2 moa. After shooting I cleaned barrel getting most of fouling out. Today I shot it again 1st 5 were 1moa 2nd 5 were 3/4 moa then 3rd 5 were 1/2 like the other day. I also shot my 6xc with clean barrel using nosler 107 competition, same thing happen 3rd group was much better. So this raises the question, is all that cleaning necessary?
Clean barrel accuracy
- Thread starter Flatshooter
- Start date
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Depends on the rifle, the barrel, the powder, and your cleaning methods.
My 6BR with PacNor three groove and typically just cleaned with soaking wet patches and Wipe-Out, settles in after 4-5 rounds -- normally sighters on steel. Then the 6BR is good to go for a match.
I have seen a 6mm Beggs (similar to 6PPC) take 20+ rounds to recover best accuracy after a very aggressive cleaning with bronze brushes and abrasives. That was after 50 rounds shot through the barrel. Interestingly, the accuracy had NOT declined at 50 rounds prior to cleaning.
I don't want to get into any arguments here. I know some Hall-of-Famers may clean after every relay -- so find out what your gun needs and likes.
My 6BR with PacNor three groove and typically just cleaned with soaking wet patches and Wipe-Out, settles in after 4-5 rounds -- normally sighters on steel. Then the 6BR is good to go for a match.
I have seen a 6mm Beggs (similar to 6PPC) take 20+ rounds to recover best accuracy after a very aggressive cleaning with bronze brushes and abrasives. That was after 50 rounds shot through the barrel. Interestingly, the accuracy had NOT declined at 50 rounds prior to cleaning.
I don't want to get into any arguments here. I know some Hall-of-Famers may clean after every relay -- so find out what your gun needs and likes.
3Sigma
Silver $$ Contributor
^^ This. YMMV
FWIW, my Savage 308 barrel takes a takes 5 to 10 to settle. But accuracy drops due to copper fouling in 100 rounds.
To answer your question, for my case, the cleaning is necessary to maintain performance, but I don't clean it out completely. I "maintain" a level of fouling by only cleaning a partial amount.
FWIW, my Savage 308 barrel takes a takes 5 to 10 to settle. But accuracy drops due to copper fouling in 100 rounds.
To answer your question, for my case, the cleaning is necessary to maintain performance, but I don't clean it out completely. I "maintain" a level of fouling by only cleaning a partial amount.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Some prefer to shoot until precision begins to degrade before cleaning the barrel. The problems with this approach are that you cannot know exactly when this will happen, and that when carbon and copper fouling are left in the barrel for an extended period, they are that much harder to completely remove. In fact, once carbon deposits acquire a shiny "black volcanic glass" appearance, they may be almost impossible to remove without using treatment with abrasives.
The converse to this would be cleaning too often, something I believe is not really possible to do. But for the sake of argument and covering both sides, over-cleaning has been proposed to unnecessarily decrease barrel life, in addition to requiring time/effort. Again, I do not believe that a proper cleaning regimen will ever harm a barrel, or decrease its useful life. Nonetheless, those that are of the mind that cleaning only when precision starts to fall off is the correct approach often use this argument in favor of cleaning less often.
I personally clean a barrel whenever it has been fired, regardless of whether that is one round, or 100 rounds. One key to cleaning every time a barrel is fired is that you will want to know how many fouling rounds will be required with the clean barrel for it to obtain "full" precision. The only way to know that with certainty is to test it. I predominantly use Bartlein 5R barrels on my F-TR competition rifles. Via routine testing, I know that my rifles will be up to the expected average velocity for a given load within 3 shots. "Full" precision is a little more difficult to gauge, as it can only be done by shooting groups. For that reason, I typically like to put at least 5-6 fouling/sighting shots downrange at the beginning of a match, practice, or load development session. The other coincident issue with regard to fully fouling and bringing a barrel up to "full" precision is that the shooter themself also needs to be up to "full" precision. Again, that is something that will vary from shooter to shooter, but is something that can be observed and recorded at almost any shooting session. How many shots the rifle needs to get up to speed and how many shots the shooter needs to get dialed in may not be the same number, but reliable numbers for each variable can readily be determined from a few range trips.
The converse to this would be cleaning too often, something I believe is not really possible to do. But for the sake of argument and covering both sides, over-cleaning has been proposed to unnecessarily decrease barrel life, in addition to requiring time/effort. Again, I do not believe that a proper cleaning regimen will ever harm a barrel, or decrease its useful life. Nonetheless, those that are of the mind that cleaning only when precision starts to fall off is the correct approach often use this argument in favor of cleaning less often.
I personally clean a barrel whenever it has been fired, regardless of whether that is one round, or 100 rounds. One key to cleaning every time a barrel is fired is that you will want to know how many fouling rounds will be required with the clean barrel for it to obtain "full" precision. The only way to know that with certainty is to test it. I predominantly use Bartlein 5R barrels on my F-TR competition rifles. Via routine testing, I know that my rifles will be up to the expected average velocity for a given load within 3 shots. "Full" precision is a little more difficult to gauge, as it can only be done by shooting groups. For that reason, I typically like to put at least 5-6 fouling/sighting shots downrange at the beginning of a match, practice, or load development session. The other coincident issue with regard to fully fouling and bringing a barrel up to "full" precision is that the shooter themself also needs to be up to "full" precision. Again, that is something that will vary from shooter to shooter, but is something that can be observed and recorded at almost any shooting session. How many shots the rifle needs to get up to speed and how many shots the shooter needs to get dialed in may not be the same number, but reliable numbers for each variable can readily be determined from a few range trips.
Yes it absolutely is!! You should always shoot some foulers. Some rifles require more fouling than others. My rifles need a few shots to settle down. Some scopes need a few shots to settle down. At any rate keep cleaning properly or you'll really see things fall apart.
The 6.5 creedmoor is a new savage with about 200 rounds the 6xc is a take-off tub competition barrel that has been set back and treaded for large shank savage so don't have any idea how many rounds on it.
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
I hope you can comprehend, "Fall apart".
Cleanliness is next to Godliness, with a few fowling shots, the barrel does not come back in, something is very wrong with that barrel.
Uniform bore dia from front to back to the .0001, is worth the price you pay on a barrel. Next is the gunsmith that indicates that barrel in to less than .0003 run out on a finished chamber....priceless!
Yup! Practice makes perfect and you learn alot about your rifles and equipment as well!
Different rifles may react differently to cleaning so I don't believe there is an absolute answer that will fit all rifles.
The one thing I discovered was that aggressive copper removal cleaning in my rifles produced first shot flyers and it took several shots for the rifle to group to sight in POI and group consistently. Thus, I've adopted a more moderate cleaning procedure and it seems to work better for me.
e.g. I just use Bore Tech C4, Carbon Remover with a bronze brush now. It does an excellent job of removing carbon and some copper. I finish with three lightly saturated patches of Hoppe's gun oil (mineral oil) to remove any residual C4. I run a dry patch through the bore before the next shooting session.
The one thing I discovered was that aggressive copper removal cleaning in my rifles produced first shot flyers and it took several shots for the rifle to group to sight in POI and group consistently. Thus, I've adopted a more moderate cleaning procedure and it seems to work better for me.
e.g. I just use Bore Tech C4, Carbon Remover with a bronze brush now. It does an excellent job of removing carbon and some copper. I finish with three lightly saturated patches of Hoppe's gun oil (mineral oil) to remove any residual C4. I run a dry patch through the bore before the next shooting session.
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
If you go to a short range Benchrest Group Match, you will see the vast majority of shooters shooting a 6PPC and cleaning after every relay.
If you go to a Benchrest Varmint for Score Match, you will see the majority of shooters shooting some type of minimum capacity 30 Caliber and not cleaning untill the match is over.
If you go to a Benchrest Varmint for Score Match, you will see the majority of shooters shooting some type of minimum capacity 30 Caliber and not cleaning untill the match is over.
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
Try extending cleaning until accuracy falls apart, at just the worst possible time! Then spend hundreds of brass brush strokes trying to get it clean. Or clean regularly for more consistent performance with minimal cleaning effort. PRS vs accuracy shooters approaches. I tried both options and settled on the second.
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
I always clean thoroughly every so often but run my barrels dirty when I need it to count. If a barrel needs cleaning but I don’t want to foul it up again I’ll just give it a few wet patches to avoid new fliers.
In my experience every barrel is different. I have two rifles at the moment that will produce the same accuracy from the very first shot on a squeaky clean cold bore as they will 30-40 rounds later. And they do that with multiple powders. Then on the flip side I’ve had barrels that can’t be trusted for consistent accuracy until at least 10-12 rounds down the bore and others that only take one or two fouler rounds to settle in. But since they all shoot great with a good fouling, I err on the side of caution and just run everything dirty.
You can’t just do a light cleaning with patches all the time tho. Eventually you’ll get too much carbon build up in the throat and neck area of the chamber in front of the case mouth. I check my bores with a scope to see when I think they need a good brush scrubbing.
In my experience every barrel is different. I have two rifles at the moment that will produce the same accuracy from the very first shot on a squeaky clean cold bore as they will 30-40 rounds later. And they do that with multiple powders. Then on the flip side I’ve had barrels that can’t be trusted for consistent accuracy until at least 10-12 rounds down the bore and others that only take one or two fouler rounds to settle in. But since they all shoot great with a good fouling, I err on the side of caution and just run everything dirty.
You can’t just do a light cleaning with patches all the time tho. Eventually you’ll get too much carbon build up in the throat and neck area of the chamber in front of the case mouth. I check my bores with a scope to see when I think they need a good brush scrubbing.
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Dusty Stevens
Shiner
I couldnt function if i went to the line with a dirty barrel just waiting on the “accuracy to fall off.” Ill figure out how many fouling shots its going to take on the sighter target. If it becomes too many it needs another barrel
Charlie very well said! I do the same as well as most my competitors. With the time it takes to stow and unload the gear, reload that ammo, and then drive miles to a match or range, why not!?
^^^^ just what he said.
My 6.5 CM and 6 CM barrels will tell me when I need to clean. I shoot 600 and 1K just about every week. I got 205 rounds on my 6.5 and 130 rounds on the 6mm without cleaning them.
My 6.5 will shoot 7" groups at 1K and the 6MM is around 1 MOA.
When my accuracy gets worse then I will clean them and then it takes about 20 rounds to get the groups back.
As said, every barrel is different you gotta do the testing.
My 6.5 CM and 6 CM barrels will tell me when I need to clean. I shoot 600 and 1K just about every week. I got 205 rounds on my 6.5 and 130 rounds on the 6mm without cleaning them.
My 6.5 will shoot 7" groups at 1K and the 6MM is around 1 MOA.
When my accuracy gets worse then I will clean them and then it takes about 20 rounds to get the groups back.
As said, every barrel is different you gotta do the testing.
My experience is that the more consistent you are able to keep the barrel the more consistent it is going to shoot. With some of the powders that I shoot in my larger bore rifles you have to keep them clean, carbon rings are real and can make things go downhill real fast. Once I started using a bore scope it really opened my eyes.
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