K&M Arbor press with standard force pack , very confused results ,need help!

[gregc66]

So first of all HELLO to everybody here , have been reading for years but this is first post for me . So I have been reloading for years with RCBS press as and Forester Micro seater dies in .223 ,6.5 Grendel and 6.5 Creedmoor ,decided lately to see if the arbor press with press .indicator set up would improve my loads so bought the combo with LE Wilson seater dies for both calibers and gave it a try and.... I am very confused as how this is supposed to work ,am I doing it right ? Here is the problem , brand new .223 and 6.5 Grendel Lapua brass which comes annealed it takes 100 to max 150 to push bullet in ,in fact many pieces I could NOT push bullet in with this little press lever at all and end up going to my RCBS press to finish bullet seating , same thing happens with fired brass , what's going on ???
The mentioned brass was ran with expending mandrel , micrometer shows new brass neck to be 0.002" under the bullet size and after using expending mandrel I am 0.001 to 0.0015 " undersized and still takes A LOT of force to seat bullets , only 6.5 Creedmoor seems to be able to seat bullet with 30-50 reading ,what am I doing wrong ? Have anybody ran in to this ?

 

[PopCharlie]

I use the same setup for .223, 6br and 6.5x47L. I had an issue like this, using heavy, flat base bullets for the 6br, and new Lapua cases. I ended up getting a K&M chamfer tool. I put little more chamfer on the case mouth. This resolved the problem. My seating force was about 75 lbs before the chamfer, it ran 45 to 50 after. It took a few tries to get the chamfer where I wanted it. You want just enough to get the bullet started. To much and you get sharp edges on the case mouth.
PopCharlie

 

[gregc66]

I chamfer all my cases before seating and all my bullets are BT no flat base here ,thought about adding some lube but for semiauto would that be bad thing ? I like heavy bullets afraid lube might help them move ? Maybe I will try more chamfer , also , did anybody found Wilson dies seating stems too short ? all 3 calibers I had to move them way down to even contact the bullet and with 6.5 Grendel it barely stays in ?

 

[RegionRat]

Here is the problem , brand new .223 and 6.5 Grendel Lapua brass which comes annealed it takes 100 to max 150 to push bullet in ,in fact many pieces I could NOT push bullet in with this little press lever at all and end up going to my RCBS press to finish bullet seating , same thing happens with fired brass , what's going on ???

did anybody found Wilson dies seating stems too short ?

Wow! You are right to wonder. Those forces are pretty abnormal for the amount of "neck tension" dimensions we are discussing. I wonder if you are getting a "pop" that high or is the rest of the stroke more "normal"?

The chamfer is critical to those initial forces, but even then your values are very high.

As for the stems, you can get with Wilson on some standard options, but I would also talk or email them about specifics. They have heard and seen it all and will probably know what stems to recommend.

ETA: I had to go look at my gage and notes. Your values go over a full turn of the gage!

 

[bozo699]

Greg,
First off welcome to the forum.
You have been given good advice but tell us more about your process. Are you chamfering as suggested? Are you using dry neck lube on new cases , that is huge!… on fired cases do you dry tumble or wet? Imo wet tumbling ruins cases if your after accuracy. If wet tumbling you will need dry neck lube if not lightly brush your necks all with the same amount of strokes you will notice a huge difference!… having the carbon left in the necks is huge as it’s a natural lube and by burnishing it with a brush they will seat buttery smooth.
Wayne

 

[bozo699]

Greg,
First off welcome to the forum.
You have been given good advice but tell us more about your process. Are you chamfering as suggested? Are you using dry neck lube on new cases , that is huge!… on fired cases do you dry tumble or wet? Imo wet tumbling ruins cases if your after accuracy. If wet tumbling you will need dry neck lube if not lightly brush your necks all with the same amount of strokes you will notice a huge difference!… having the carbon left in the necks is huge as it’s a natural lube and by burnishing it with a brush they will seat buttery smooth.
Wayne

Sorry Greg I was writing the same time you were or wouldn’t have asked some of those questions then got a phone call in the middle of typing you. I have hoards of Wilson dies and have not had any issues with being able to seat bullets deal enough
Wayne

 

[lawrence97]

I chamfer all my cases before seating and all my bullets are BT no flat base here ,thought about adding some lube but for semiauto would that be bad thing ? I like heavy bullets afraid lube might help them move ? Maybe I will try more chamfer , also , did anybody found Wilson dies seating stems too short ? all 3 calibers I had to move them way down to even contact the bullet and with 6.5 Grendel it barely stays in ?

Are you using the 3 calibers mentioned in a semi auto?
I’ve never had an issue with the Wilson seating stems being too short which leads me to believe you are trying to seat bullets for magazine length or stuffing your bullets deep into the cases.

I also think you are wasting time trying to load with an arbor press for a semi auto. Usually a semi auto will require a bit more neck tension than a bolt rifle and therefore makes it hard to seat with an arbor press. I have found that the arbor press is best when you don’t have more than .002 to .003 neck tension.

The other variable is how much are you sizing your brass after firing? Are you using a FL bushing die, a FL die a neck sizer or ?

I also assume you aren’t using neck turned brass. If your brass is not neck turned I have found the thicker necks take a larger mandrel to lower seating pressure as mentioned above. You might also find that the higher seating pressure loads will shoot better which makes the pursuit of lower seating pressure a waste of time.

 

[gregc66]

Are you using the 3 calibers mentioned in a semi auto?
I’ve never had an issue with the Wilson seating stems being too short which leads me to believe you are trying to seat bullets for magazine length or stuffing your bullets deep into the cases.

I also think you are wasting time trying to load with an arbor press for a semi auto. Usually a semi auto will require a bit more neck tension than a bolt rifle and therefore makes it hard to seat with an arbor press. I have found that the arbor press is best when you don’t have more than .002 to .003 neck tension.

The other variable is how much are you sizing your brass after firing? Are you using a FL bushing die, a FL die a neck sizer or ?

I also assume you aren’t using neck turned brass. If your brass is not neck turned I have found the thicker necks take a larger mandrel to lower seating pressure as mentioned above. You might also find that the higher seating pressure loads will shoot better which makes the pursuit of lower seating pressure a waste of time.

thank you all for great info , to answer my .223 and 6.5 Grendel is semi auto and 6.5 CR is Tikka Tac1 bolt gun ,I think all you advices were dead on but I wonder here , by bozo699 ....wet tumbling ruins cases if your after accuracy..... never heard of it ? I am .....Lee collet die depriming , wet tumbling ,full body sizing ( depriming rod removed ) ,chamfer and expender mandrel are next before seating , I start to think that you dead on this arbor press is for bolt guns reloading only and semi auto should be left alone with whatever that neck tension is , I like heavy bullets ( 77/80 in 0.223 ,130and 140 in Grendel and 140 up in Creedmoor ) so they all long for caliber so not pushing them deep at all in fact I load my 0.223 77TMK to 2.30 and 80 ELD to 2.375 ( mag front cut out ) why my 6.5 Grendel seating stem is sticking out at the end ? I emailed Wilson and waiting .

 

[RegionRat]

I start to think that you dead on this arbor press is for bolt guns reloading only and semi auto should be left alone with whatever that neck tension is

No, not really. Ammo going 300 or less, only needs to be decent. But, ammo going to 600 yard line, that is another story, regardless of the AR platform or bolt platform.

Many folks run their 600 yard line ammo on a progressive, yes. But that doesn't mean you don't benefit from the fault detection you get from a Wilson seater in an arbor press. With the difficulty of getting good virgin LC brass, I run the 600 yard line loads on the arbor press (or AMP Press these days) and catch all sorts of problems that would cost me points.

ETA: test some of that ammo giving you your questions against a "normal" batch and see how they group at 600. Then remember, it was the arbor press that exposed this issue.

 

[gregc66]

No, not really. Ammo going 300 or less, only needs to be decent. But, ammo going to 600 yard line, that is another story, regardless of the AR platform or bolt platform.

Many folks run their 600 yard line ammo on a progressive, yes. But that doesn't mean you don't benefit from the fault detection you get from a Wilson seater in an arbor press. With the difficulty of getting good virgin LC brass, I run the 600 yard line loads on the arbor press (or AMP Press these days) and catch all sorts of problems that would cost me points.

ETA: test some of that ammo giving you your questions against a "normal" batch and see how they group at 600. Then remember, it was the arbor press that exposed this issue.

well that's exactly why I invested in arbor press /Wilson seater in the first place , for 600 yards loads ,what I think now my problem is little bit new brass ( my 6.5 CR Lapua and Alpha is after 15 or so firings and gives me no problem to stay in 30-50 range with this new set up ) but also neck size on new brass , here are my thoughts ..... never knew what pressure takes to seat bullets on my RCBS press but when I could not push bullets in any more on this little one at over 150 and took it to my RCBS to finish it felt ....absolutely normal !
So my new brass and fired full length sized brass neck was crashed to about 0.003 under ,expending mandrel is supposed to bring it to 0.001 under but it DOES NOT ,brass springs back ( have been doing it all morning now ) so looks to me that for that idea to work brass neck has to be sized down very close to what you want so .... time to invest in bushing die ? that's the only thing I do not have yet . By now , today , while reading great info from you guys I tested something , used my collet die to crash fired brass to only 0.001 under , it took about half turn on die set up NOT full turn they tell you , ran mandrel on it and when to seat it with arbor press and it works fine ,30 -40 range to seat bullet ,I think I am getting there but question is ,for semi auto what pressure is right before bullets start sliding in the case ?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

For semi auto just go with what youve been doing. Trying to get down to the 40 max thats normal you wont like with a mag fed semi auto. Get a bushing die and use the arbor press for the bolt gun

 

[Ccrider]

A little graphite lube in the necks with a qtip may surprise you. https://www.amazon.com/Redding-Imperial-Convenience-Application-Media/dp/B00PFY0M90

 

[bozo699]

thank you all for great info , to answer my .223 and 6.5 Grendel is semi auto and 6.5 CR is Tikka Tac1 bolt gun ,I think all you advices were dead on but I wonder here , by bozo699 ....wet tumbling ruins cases if your after accuracy..... never heard of it ? I am .....Lee collet die depriming , wet tumbling ,full body sizing ( depriming rod removed ) ,chamfer and expender mandrel are next before seating , I start to think that you dead on this arbor press is for bolt guns reloading only and semi auto should be left alone with whatever that neck tension is , I like heavy bullets ( 77/80 in 0.223 ,130and 140 in Grendel and 140 up in Creedmoor ) so they all long for caliber so not pushing them deep at all in fact I load my 0.223 77TMK to 2.30 and 80 ELD to 2.375 ( mag front cut out ) why my 6.5 Grendel seating stem is sticking out at the end ? I emailed Wilson and waiting .

Greg,
What I meant by that if you wet or ultrasonic clean your going to have the issues your seeing trying to seat billets. Your going to need some inside neck lube since you have cleaned all the carbon which is natural lube outta the necks. Best of luck in your ventures.
Wayne

 

[gregc66]

A little graphite lube in the necks with a qtip may surprise you. https://www.amazon.com/Redding-Imperial-Convenience-Application-Media/dp/B00PFY0M90

just ordered it and will give it a try ,thanks

 

[RegionRat]

Another suggestion if you are interested in mitigating neck galling and trying dry lubes in the loading.

NeoLube #2 is a fine graphite lube that comes in a volatile solvent that flashes off and leaves the graphite like a nice layer. I found it much easier than other methods. If you like graphite, give this a try some time.

 

[gregc66]

You guys all speaking very high about the neck lube use and I ordered some and will give it a try however I am VERY skeptical that this is going to solve my problem why ??? Because one of my favorite bullets to load in both 6.5 Grendel and Creedmoor is 130 Norma Diamond Line ! one slippery moly coated bullet and .......still could not seat it down with new brass so.......???