AutoTrickler V4

[Antoviola]

Mine will ship in February supposedly

 

[Ccrider]

Just put in a order for one. I have had the V2 in a cart for weeks and then decided to hold off for the V3. The pandemnic hit and never ordered and I am so glad I didn't now because the V4 looks incredible.

I had placed an order for the V3 and canceled it when I saw the V4 was coming out. Then got lucky and was picked as one of the beta testers. Definitely a win/win.

 

[Bob3700]

I noticed in all of the demo's that the overall accuracy of the unit is +/- .02 grains. Overall that is a .04 grain variation. If you are shooting 1000yds , it that an acceptable window of powder weight accuracy? Yes, that variation is going to affect a 308 different than a 6 BR. Guess my question is: Can you see .04 grain variation on the 600 to 1000yd target in a 6mm BR?

The speed of which it operates, the ease of changing powders, the noise level are all minor issues as far as I am concerned.

 

[Ccrider]

Will let the 1000 yard guys answer. I can say that calibrated correctly, the V4 normally stops spot on or .02 under. You can manually turn the dispenser to drop a grain or two to get spot on, much like the earlier AutoTricklers.

 

[OmegaRed]

Offering some feedback and first thoughts:

Threw some batches of 10 cases at a time of H4198 - shooting for 34.52 grains. Intent was to gauge speed vs. accuracy with the overall goal - less overall time. (i.e. if an overcharge and dump back in the hopper is faster than waiting for a perfect throw). For clarity sake I was accepting 34.50 and 34.52 as a "green light" throw but tossing 34.54 back catch and release.

Speed 5: 1 overthrow (34.60), 5 min 11 sec.
Speed 7: 1 overthrow (34.54), 4 min 3 sec.
Speed 10: 5 overthrow in a row off the bat - stopped as this was obviously going to keep happening.

Went back to Speed 8: 5 overthrow (34.54, 34.60, 34.54, 34.54, 34.56) 6 min. Coarse tube speed seemed right, small tube was too aggressive.

This isn't a fault of the machine, it's pretty clear in the manual that 5 is a default starting point. I just wanted to push it and see how fast we can get to loading 50 rounds. 7 was most def. the best with this powder for me. I think it could handle 7 with a more aggressive small tube speed ramp.

@adamjmac Is this based off of an index or done in a cubical parabola type shape?
I'm thinking of something like below that there could be a dev mode where you fine tune. You could save powder profiles for various types of powder, even allow them to be shareable.



Another suggestion would be to make the slider drag slightly larger. A bit difficult to grab accurately.

As others have noted, reduced sound and ease of cleanout are two very nice features.

 

[Bob3700]

Offering some feedback and first thoughts:

Threw some batches of 10 cases at a time of H4198 - shooting for 34.52 grains. Intent was to gauge speed vs. accuracy with the overall goal - less overall time. (i.e. if an overcharge and dump back in the hopper is faster than waiting for a perfect throw). For clarity sake I was accepting 34.50 and 34.52 as a "green light" throw but tossing 34.54 back catch and release.

Speed 5: 1 overthrow (34.60), 5 min 11 sec.
Speed 7: 1 overthrow (34.54), 4 min 3 sec.
Speed 10: 5 overthrow in a row off the bat - stopped as this was obviously going to keep happening.

Went back to Speed 8: 5 overthrow (34.54, 34.60, 34.54, 34.54, 34.56) 6 min. Coarse tube speed seemed right, small tube was too aggressive.

This isn't a fault of the machine, it's pretty clear in the manual that 5 is a default starting point. I just wanted to push it and see how fast we can get to loading 50 rounds. 7 was most def. the best with this powder for me. I think it could handle 7 with a more aggressive small tube speed ramp.

@adamjmac Is this based off of an index or done in a cubical parabola type shape?

As others have noted, reduced sound and ease of cleanout are two very nice features.

Ok, so looking again to ask if in a 6 br, is the range of 34.50 to 34.52 an acceptable powder variation that will not show up on a target at 600 to 1000 yds.

My thought is at 600 it may be acceptable but at 1000, it maybe too much. If 1K shooters are weighing primers to reduce variations, that powder spread may be too much.

That said I do have a V4 on order . Just curious what to expect.

 

[OmegaRed]

Ok, so looking again to ask if in a 6 br, is the range of 34.50 to 34.52 an acceptable powder variation that will not show up on a target at 600 to 1000 yds.

My thought is at 600 it may be acceptable but at 1000, it maybe too much. If 1K shooters are weighing primers to reduce variations, that powder spread may be too much.

That said I do have a V4 on order . Just curious what to expect.

.02 is a single grain of powder of Varget. Lots of ways to get it exact if that's what you need or think you need to do

 

[tac284]

At .02 you are breaking out the razor blade to whittle down one kernel. To Each Their Own...

 

[karrarararararar]

Ok, so looking again to ask if in a 6 br, is the range of 34.50 to 34.52 an acceptable powder variation that will not show up on a target at 600 to 1000 yds.

My thought is at 600 it may be acceptable but at 1000, it maybe too much. If 1K shooters are weighing primers to reduce variations, that powder spread may be too much.

That said I do have a V4 on order . Just curious what to expect.

If that .02 or .04 is enough for you to notice you either have exceptional world class talent or need to find a new load IMO.

While I have no experience with 6BR, in 308 I throw my 1,000 yard 308 Palma charges (8208 XBR) and don't believe I'd gain much weighing charges. Plenty of fantastic scores have been shot and records set without this level of precision.

 

[KenOath]

I doubt anyone would see a difference of .02 even in a sealed 1k tunnel….. +,- .02 will be more than anyone on planet earth will ever need if that’s what they wanna do… but a whole lotta ducks need to be in a row before said powder charge accuracy matters.

 

[kindabitey]

I noticed in all of the demo's that the overall accuracy of the unit is +/- .02 grains. Overall that is a .04 grain variation. If you are shooting 1000yds , it that an acceptable window of powder weight accuracy? Yes, that variation is going to affect a 308 different than a 6 BR. Guess my question is: Can you see .04 grain variation on the 600 to 1000yd target in a 6mm BR?

The speed of which it operates, the ease of changing powders, the noise level are all minor issues as far as I am concerned.

Mostly depends on the trigger puller. Yes, a .04 gr difference could possibly matter in a 6BR or one of the smaller capacity cartridges, but in my opinion, it's unlikely.

 

[divingin]

Ok, so looking again to ask if in a 6 br, is the range of 34.50 to 34.52 an acceptable powder variation that will not show up on a target at 600 to 1000 yds.

My thought is at 600 it may be acceptable but at 1000, it maybe too much. If 1K shooters are weighing primers to reduce variations, that powder spread may be too much.

That said I do have a V4 on order . Just curious what to expect.

Looking at that another way, how are you measuring to .02gns?

That is about the tolerance of what a thousandth gram scale will measure, much less resolve and display. Add in any drift and/or environmentally induced error, and you're over that.

Unless you're using a $1K, .0005 gram or better scientific balance in ideal conditions, I don't think you can say you're actually measuring any better than +/- .02 gns.

 

[OmegaRed]

As a follow up to my previous post, under settings there is individual sliders for both large and small tubes and you can mess with them independently. Worth screwing around and keeping notes on your individual powders.

On my lunch today, I ran 30 cases of 8208 on setting 10 and got zero overthrows. Didn't time it though.

 

[PracticalTactical]

Looking at that another way, how are you measuring to .02gns?

That is about the tolerance of what a thousandth gram scale will measure, much less resolve and display. Add in any drift and/or environmentally induced error, and you're over that.

Unless you're using a $1K, .0005 gram or better scientific balance in ideal conditions, I don't think you can say you're actually measuring any better than +/- .02 gns.

I dont have an FX120, but I had a Sartorious .02 grain scale for a while, then I upgraded to a Vibra HT220 0.002 grain scale.

I figure the improved accuracy of the Vibra HT220 is what is truly required to get the accuracy most guys think they get from an FX120.

The Vibra HT220 was quite expensive, but for the cost of an FX120 and an auto trickler, you are into the price of a more precise scale. This makes it a debate of convenience vs accuracy for about the same cost.

I just use an RCBS thrower and manually refine the load on the Vibra HT220 with an Omega trickler, and a pair of tweezers for the last kernel occasionally. Yes I am tempted to get out the razor blade, but "usually don't". I do get fussy about kernel size though and learn to pick big or small ones as needed at the end.

I figure the realistic accuracy error of the FX 120 to be worth at least 1.8 vertical inches at 1000 yards with a 6BR.

I bought mine when the Vibra importer was in the area to service a local vitamin plant and he stopped by with it so I could test it against the Sartorious. He explained the advantage of internal calibration and most importantly the load sensing system in the Vibra is not like load cell or magnetic force restoration. The Vibra uses a tuning fork system so its not affected by wireless phones or voltage fluctuations and most importantly does not need to warm up.

I've had it for many years now and its such a satisfying experience every time I use it. For fun I will have friends weigh a piece of paper, then weigh it again after they sign it. Then I show them how much the ink used for their signature weighs.

Personally I'd rather have the accuracy than the automation.

Oh ya, one more thing... If you are weight sorting FGMM primers with an FX120, you are wasting your time. The variance of FGMM primers I have tested is better than an FX120 can determine. If you are using an FX120 to sort primers, you are actually using primers to test the accuracy of your scale.

 

[Bob3700]

Looking at that another way, how are you measuring to .02gns?

That is about the tolerance of what a thousandth gram scale will measure, much less resolve and display. Add in any drift and/or environmentally induced error, and you're over that.

Unless you're using a $1K, .0005 gram or better scientific balance in ideal conditions, I don't think you can say you're actually measuring any better than +/- .02 gns.

The core of my questioning has been related to the level of precision/ accuracy required for weighing powder charges. I presently use a Satorious 503 precision balance and an Omega trickler. It is a combination that weights my powder charges to the third decimal.
My BRX loading window has been 33.510 to 33.520 Of Varget. This is a level of precision that the FX-120 is not capable of. Due to the variation in wt. of a single kernel of Varget I usually don’t get each thrown n trickled charge in that window n have to re-throw n trickle. My suspicion is that level of powder wt accuracy is not necessary even to 1000 yds. I ordered the V4 combo to test this out n see if the automated system gives the same level of results I have been achieving.
Overall speed of the reloading process is not really the goal as I rarely load ammo in large quantities against the clock.

 

[newbieshooter]

Ok, so looking again to ask if in a 6 br, is the range of 34.50 to 34.52 an acceptable powder variation that will not show up on a target at 600 to 1000 yds.

My thought is at 600 it may be acceptable but at 1000, it maybe too much. If 1K shooters are weighing primers to reduce variations, that powder spread may be too much.

The core of my questioning has been related to the level of precision/ accuracy required for weighing powder charges. I presently use a Satorious 503 precision balance and an Omega trickler. It is a combination that weights my powder charges to the third decimal.
My BRX loading window has been 33.510 to 33.520 Of Varget. This is a level of precision that the FX-120 is not capable of. Due to the variation in wt. of a single kernel of Varget I usually don’t get each thrown n trickled charge in that window n have to re-throw n trickle. My suspicion is that level of powder wt accuracy is not necessary even to 1000 yds. I ordered the V4 combo to test this out n see if the automated system gives the same level of results I have been achieving.
Overall speed of the reloading process is not really the goal as I rarely load ammo in large quantities against the clock.

That said I do have a V4 on order . Just curious what to expect.

How important is one kernel of powder?

Looking at the high end powder throwers and scales compared with the chargemasters and the like and wondering how important a kernel of powder is in precision. For my load, one kernel divided by FPS is about 1 to 1. At 600 yds that’s equal to about .1 inches. One tenth of a grain is equal to .6...

forum.accurateshooter.com

Is your aiming accuracy @1000 comparable to one kernel?

My aiming accuracy is worse, therefore my GemPro scale is much more accurate then me

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[Nvcnvc]

Looking at that another way, how are you measuring to .02gns?

That is about the tolerance of what a thousandth gram scale will measure, much less resolve and display. Add in any drift and/or environmentally induced error, and you're over that.

Unless you're using a $1K, .0005 gram or better scientific balance in ideal conditions, I don't think you can say you're actually measuring any better than +/- .02 gns.

That is a correct statement. The Fx 120i can differentiate weights up to 0.015 grains , but due to the display limits it shows as 0.02 gns. So, when when the scale displays 34.52 , the actual weight could be anywhere between 34.50 to 35.54… if you are not happy with that then you would need to move to a sartorious scale with a repeatability of .0015 grains. But now you are in the 2k range…

 

[morpheus]

For any of you who may have just received their new V4 unit, I wanted to share an issue I encountered with mine, and also how I resolved it. Here is the body of an email I just sent to Adam:

"I wanted to let you know about an issue I experienced with the V4. When I had everything assembled and then tested the two motors, the high flow (left) motor just made a humming noise and did not operate. When I tried to turn the black tube by hand (motor off) it was very difficult to turn. The belt was also extremely tight. I checked the cable connection and it was fine.

Next I loosened the four mounting screws and repositioned the motor very slightly inward, thus creating a little more slack in the belt. This resolved the issue. So basically, when originally assembled, the left motor was too far to the left, and the motor was unable to overcome the resistance of the belt being too tight."

I thought I would post this just in case any of you experience the same issue.

Update - In communication with Adam now. I will share the results...

OK, so the fix was actually much simpler than what I did at first. All that happened was that the large black high-flow tube had been pushed forward a bit, and was thus messing up the belt alignment and tension. All I really needed to do was to just push the black tube back a few mm to realign everything. There was no need to loosen and reposition the motor.

I hope this info helps someone somewhere else down the line. Also, Adam was very helpful and responded quickly, so kudos to him. He also said they already changed the packaging configuration so that this won't happen anymore.

Here is what it looked like before I simply repositioned the tube back a few mm. I did not realize how easy it was to reposition the tube (I assumed it was fixed in place):

 

[rox]

That is a correct statement. The Fx 120i can differentiate weights up to 0.015 grains , but due to the display limits it shows as 0.02 gns. So, when when the scale displays 34.52 , the actual weight could be anywhere between 34.50 to 35.54… if you are not happy with that then you would need to move to a sartorious scale with a repeatability of .0015 grains. But now you are in the 2k range…

If 34.52 represented anywhere between 34.50 and 35.54 it would be a pretty bad design (assuming 0.02 readability). 34.54 should mean somewhere between 34.51 and 34.53. My testing of FX120i balances using 0.1mg balances suggests that it does a very good job of quantizing the internal value to grains, so if it says 34.52 it really is somewhere between 34.51 and 34.53. It is clear from this that the internal resolution is much finer than the finest readability (i.e. 1mg or 0.015 grains approx).

 

[jnyfeler]

Next I loosened the four mounting screws and repositioned the motor very slightly inward, thus creating a little more slack in the belt. This resolved the issue. So basically, when originally assembled, the left motor was too far to the left, and the motor was unable to overcome the resistance of the belt being too tight."

Update - In communication with Adam now. I will share the results...

Thanks for the tip, Jim. Mine is due in January.

Jeff