Status of NRA rules, E-Targets, certification and records?

[Bob3700]

I'm confused. If ET's are so horrible that they cause you to lose points.....then shouldn't a NR set on an ET actually be tougher than one on paper. I mean if ETs cause all of these false 9s and 8s yet I shoot a clean it sounds to me like that is a real accomplishment.

U don’t shoot a clean shooting 8s.

 

[Bob3700]

I love my little 3 foot square e-target made out of 2x6 lumber. It weighs 50# and is close to ground. It doesn’t move.

But when you are at a match shooting a 6’ square target at 600 on minimal frames….and you you get I wide nine after hammering 15x’s.. it really can piss you off and make you scratch your head.

Where is shot 19 on paper in the attached pics.

I have rarely shot at a 6 target+ match where one target wasn’t acting up and you hear people say. “it will be ok”…. “It can work with 3 mics”… “take another one” … “ignore that ghost”. “those messages are ok, keep shooting”.. or things like that.

we need to know from the manufacture what messages, if any, are ok and what is a stop shooting and fix message.

just my opinion

Last match I shot at my sling shooter was solidly in the 10-x ring when all of a sudden her shot comes up a high 7. No conditions caused this high shot. She said she broke a solid center shot. Error message says that the right lower sensor may have a loose connection.
so do I ignore the shot or score the 7? Or ignore the 7 and have her shoot anther shot?

what dictates when I ignore the bad shot?

I think that targets are “ Not ready for Prime Time playing”.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Some casual observations from matches I've attended....

I won't pretend to be an authority on this, nor am I claiming it resolves all the issues, but it does seem like putting wind screens over the microphones, as well as using dielectric grease on the 3.5mm jacks does significantly reduce the amount of e-target issues you'll see at a match.

That example above with a clean shown on paper, but a flyer 9 is probably the most egregious example of a legitimate "issue" I've seen.

It's important to keep things in perspective though; I've been frustrated (or had scores harmed) more frequently by slow/bad pit service than I have from an e-target issue. MDs are usually pretty reasonable with e-targets, but you're just kinda stuck with bad pit service.

There is nothing worse than 30 second plus pit service.

 

[pat fulghum]

Last match I shot at my sling shooter was solidly in the 10-x ring when all of a sudden her shot comes up a high 7. No conditions caused this high shot. She said she broke a solid center shot. Error message says that the right lower sensor may have a loose connection.
so do I ignore the shot or score the 7? Or ignore the 7 and have her shoot anther shot?

what dictates when I ignore the bad shot?

I think that targets are “ Not ready for Prime Time playing”.

exactly my point…

what dictates when to ignore the bad shot?

In my case many prior shots had messages shown but shot 19 (wide 9) did not.

 

[jelenko]

Where is shot 19 on paper in the attached pics.

Indeed!

 

[sdean]

Last match I shot at my sling shooter was solidly in the 10-x ring when all of a sudden her shot comes up a high 7. No conditions caused this high shot. She said she broke a solid center shot. Error message says that the right lower sensor may have a loose connection.
so do I ignore the shot or score the 7? Or ignore the 7 and have her shoot anther shot?

what dictates when I ignore the bad shot?

I think that targets are “ Not ready for Prime Time playing”.

At the 600 yd Space Coast last year in FL the kept a guy in the pits. Pasted outside the 9 every match. I’m scoring for a guy shooting clean. 15th shot a 6. They pull the target down, guess what. That one wasn’t wrong. Only one I ever seen checked liked that. I have seen a known shooter talk his way into another shot for the exact same thing. I think those targets are correct more than you think. Now a 1/4 inch maybe not as much.

 

[TylerFromMS]

Last match I shot at my sling shooter was solidly in the 10-x ring when all of a sudden her shot comes up a high 7. No conditions caused this high shot. She said she broke a solid center shot. Error message says that the right lower sensor may have a loose connection.
so do I ignore the shot or score the 7? Or ignore the 7 and have her shoot anther shot?

what dictates when I ignore the bad shot?

I think that targets are “ Not ready for Prime Time playing”.

Easy. Check the velocity or SD. If it’s errant, it will be wildly different. This is where judgement and discretion comes in.

 

[jelenko]

Do the Hexta targets eliminate the errant shots? In another forum, I've seen a rep from Hexta explaining how their system is more fail safe.

 

[RDavies]

I'm confused. If ET's are so horrible that they cause you to lose points.....then shouldn't a NR set on an ET actually be tougher than one on paper. I mean if ETs cause all of these false 9s and 8s yet I shoot a clean it sounds to me like that is a real accomplishment.

Unless you get what happened with a target at my local club (But who knows if the same happens in big comps). At our club, there was one target where a lot of people were breaking their records, shooting X ring possibles) when they had hardly ever shot clean previously. Some have told me they would love to shoot on this target, but I tested my newish gun on that target and thought , wow, this gun is awesome, it is drilling the X ring. But when I shot it on another target later on, it was nothing special. We had checked the target was set to the range we were shooting, so not sure what the issue was, but a few month later when everyone was shooting the shit out of this target, is became less accurate than other targets at the club again.

So while I often bitch about E targets not being as accurate as our best rifles once the targets are shot out, sometimes, they are more accurate than proper targets.

 

[davidjoe]

Or you guys can do as the ASSA did, break away from NRA.. form your own F-Class origination, develop your rules and how you feel that they pertain to your sport, using E-Targets.. and you won't have to complain about the NRA and won't have to worry about being a member and shoot national records according to your rules from the body of your organization.. Call it something like USA F-Class International or something to that effect..

^^^ Sling Shooter ^^^^^^^^^^ Unchecked Tech


>>> >>>>>. Sweet Spot, Current NRA rules <<<<<<

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I'm confused. If ET's are so horrible that they cause you to lose points.....then shouldn't a NR set on an ET actually be tougher than one on paper. I mean if ETs cause all of these false 9s and 8s yet I shoot a clean it sounds to me like that is a real accomplishment.

If it were only that simple. The targets can, and do, err to benefit the shooter That is shown in the video. It's kind of like a craps game, sometimes you win, others, snake eyes...

 

[Jennb]

Why did only 20 people shoot FTR Mid Range at nationals this year? I mean heck, it was pulled targets where you were certain to get a well scored target.

Because there is no back stop to see bullet impacts. Try looking up at a target all day with the sun in your eyes. It was not fun in that respect.

 

[Erud]

Why did only 20 people shoot FTR Mid Range at nationals this year? I mean heck, it was pulled targets where you were certain to get a well scored target.

Because there is no back stop to see bullet impacts. Try looking up at a target all day with the sun in your eyes. It was not fun in that respect.

Ever been to Camp Perry?

 

[CharlieNC]

Target scoring, however it is done is not perfect. For even the most honorable and conscience scoring a shot close to the line is very difficult and can often change the outcome. Ever hear complaints that paid target pullers were generous on the spotting? Not to mention being able to have a paid puller is a tremendous advantage in itself vs those doing pit duty! I can live with imperfect etargets as an equalizer for all which will even itself out in the end, especially as the demands drive the technology to further improvements.

 

[Warren Dean]

Why did only 20 people shoot FTR Mid Range at nationals this year? I mean heck, it was pulled targets where you were certain to get a well scored target.

Because there is no back stop to see bullet impacts. Try looking up at a target all day with the sun in your eyes. It was not fun in that respect.

90+ degrees and same humidity...yuck!!!!

 

[TylerFromMS]

Target scoring, however it is done is not perfect. For even the most honorable and conscience scoring a shot close to the line is very difficult and can often change the outcome. Ever hear complaints that paid target pullers were generous on the spotting? Not to mention being able to have a paid puller is a tremendous advantage in itself vs those doing pit duty! I can live with imperfect etargets as an equalizer for all which will even itself out in the end, especially as the demands drive the technology to further improvements.

No, no. Everyone on this forum is a perfect target puller and never makes mistakes. And only the fat and lazy like e-targets. They told me so when this was discussed last time after they consulted a thesaurus to find synonyms. They also never get tired, thus never increasing their chances of making mistakes. If you don't believe me, just ask.

 

[DE-F-Open]

At the 600 yd Space Coast last year in FL the kept a guy in the pits. Pasted outside the 9 every match. I’m scoring for a guy shooting clean. 15th shot a 6. They pull the target down, guess what. That one wasn’t wrong. Only one I ever seen checked liked that. I have seen a known shooter talk his way into another shot for the exact same thing. I think those targets are correct more than you think. Now a 1/4 inch maybe not as much.

At the 600 yd Space Coast last year in FL the kept a guy in the pits. Pasted outside the 9 every match. I’m scoring for a guy shooting clean. 15th shot a 6. They pull the target down, guess what. That one wasn’t wrong. Only one I ever seen checked liked that. I have seen a known shooter talk his way into another shot for the exact same thing. I think those targets are correct more than you think. Now a 1/4 inch maybe not as much.

I shot the Space Coast F-Class Regional, both Mid-Range and Fullbore. They had a great system, ran a great match and did a great job! Very enjoyable. I would certainly shoot there again

However, we did have one problem. Thank God for the system you just described - I was shooting pair fire at 300 and I think I was clean when out of nowhere came an 8 at about 8 o'clock - no way! I could see the paper target and there was no hole there, my pair-fire partner agreed, and I challenged. When they looked at the target in the pits they found that my eye sight was still good (or as good as it can be for a Grand Senior)- there was no shot where the system scored that 8 - I won my challenge.

The system they used to check to make sure erroneous "ghost shots" don't hurt your score worked!

Like I said, I would certainly shoot there again, because of the system they have to ensure ultimate fairness, and because they run a wonderful match.

John

 

[effendude]

Since we are at 5 pages of discussion, here are some thoughts on making using E-targets more accountable. Our club has 22 Shot Marker targets we use for weekly leagues and a few matches. They work great for the most part and we have learned a few things along the way to keep them working well. For convenience, we have the impacts offset 2 moa high to save the target face. Shots land high in the 8 ring are scored X/10's. We can literally go for 10 weeks of shooting before refacing. Great from a maintenance stand point, but not from a shot accountability for score stand point. We have experienced the odd shot from time to time.

Here is what I think could be done to make E-targets (Shot Marker) more accountable:

• Require targets be calibrated for accurate, centered shot placement. We owe that to the shooter.
• Install a new center after every shot string or relay (Yes, this would require the NRA to allow more inexpensive 8-9 ring replacement centers, instead of full face replacements. (We used to print our own 9 ring centers for our league targets when we pulled targets) Attach by staples, tape, whatever means allows for easy non-damaging removal.
• Pit staff would note/paste all impacts beyond the replacement center for accountability for each relay.
• Match officials could review centers for accurate scores and challenges as needed.

I typically have one person in the pits for leagues/matches to maintain the targets now. A staff of two or three could easily refresh and paste targets during relay changes.

Scott

 

[m1jeff]

Scott,
You’re on track as to what is done at Port Malabar for the big tournaments such as the above mentioned Space Coast Regional. A pit crew refaces for every relay.

 

[sdean]

Scott,
You’re on track as to what is done at Port Malabar for the big tournaments such as the above mentioned Space Coast Regional. A pit crew refaces for every relay.

The Space coast 600 was the best run match I attended last year. But they only checked on errant shots outside the 9 ring was my understanding. The accuracy of anything else wasn’t checked.