25-06

[SweaterDood]

Met a man quite a few years ago, with extensive experience as a game warden and guide in Africa, Canada and Alaska. He was guiding (protecting) scientist in the Taku Glacier area. He killed a number of bears, he used a pump 3", 12 gauge with #4 buckshot. Some times the bears 'false' charge, but if they stood up, he shot them in the neck. He must have had nerves of steel, bears are close when they 'lift'. None of the 'old time' pistol writers, Elmer Keith (inventor of the 44mag? & 41 mag), Skeeter Skelton, Ed McGivern ever shot a bear with a pistol, or never wrote about it. The area I frequent in Montana has quite a few grizzlies, the bears are 'people smart'. Our rancher friend formerly chased them out of his calving area on a ATV (4 wheeler), a sow chased him. Now the calving grounds are enclosed in 5 strands of hot wire. Deer and elk hunting just isn't enjoyable there any longer. I quit hunting in the Bob Marshall a number of years ago after 2 bear experiences in 3 days. I received pictures of a sow with 2 cubs in the pasture below the cabin a couple of weeks ago. The neighbor put the run on them, right up the driveway to the cabin. I go to the mountains or back country for enjoyment, grizzly bears are not part of MY enjoyment.

I personally don’t agree with hunting predators for sport, only if the population gets to a point where it needs controlling. I’d rather not be in the vicinity of them if I can help it. That said, if I’m in bear country, I would want bear capable defense.

I feel like this thread has been hijacked enough, so my main point is that the heavy 130-135gr 25 caliber bullets are extremely capable. 130gr 6.5mm bullets have taken the largest African game in the hands of Bob and John Nosler, and at 3200-3300fps I see no reason that .007” difference in diameter would be any less capable. Hence why I stated it’s capability for anything in North America. Not ideal in all situations, but capable.

 

[Kittitas George]

I personally don’t agree with hunting predators for sport, only if the population gets to a point where it needs controlling. I’d rather not be in the vicinity of them if I can help it. That said, if I’m in bear country, I would want bear capable defense.

I feel like this thread has been hijacked enough, so my main point is that the heavy 130-135gr 25 caliber bullets are extremely capable. 130gr 6.5mm bullets have taken the largest African game in the hands of Bob and John Nosler, and at 3200-3300fps I see no reason that .007” difference in diameter would be any less capable. Hence why I stated it’s capability for anything in North America. Not ideal in all situations, but capable.

'Karamoja' Bell killed about 1300 elephants using a 7x57. He had a much bigger gun but the reoil "spun him around like a weather cock in a hurricane". I agree with you, I don't hunt predators for sport either. My wife and I were in the mountains on Saturday, we saw a very nice mature black bear. There was a lady killed by a grizzly bear in Montana on Tuesday, she was in one of the areas I frequent.

 

[Downeast]

Roy Weatherby enjoyed his .257 enough to take it to Africa and shoot a variety of big beasts with it. And that was in the days when top quality bullets (as compared to today) did not exist. I enjoyed the 25-06 so much that I kicked it up a notch to the Wby Magnum and never looked back. I have several hundred Nosler 100 grain BT's and Partitions that have done excellent work on deer (whitetail and mulies) so I haven't played around with anything else. But I do enjoy the quarter bore.

 

[gsardokla]

I’ve spent quite a few summers in AK, with family that lived there for over 30 years. Stood 5 feet from an 8’ tall Kodiak with only a window between us. He was much more interested in the salmon on the grill outside than he was in me. Had a 12ga loaded with 3” slugs by the door. Just left him to finish his snack then went back out on the river to catch more salmon, after he went back into the woods.

I also never said that a 25cal what the guides carry, but that I would trust mine to do the job. I would still prefer a semi-auto/pump shotgun for bear country, but a hot loaded magnum revolver does the trick too. Like all animals, bears are not armored magical beasts. They have vitals which explode under the same hydrostatic pressure as any other animal.

Back on topic:
The new 131-135gr bullets are far more capable than the light flat base, round-nose, soft-points typically used in this caliber. Much better penetration and stopping power. Especially when combined with a cartridge that generates ample energy.

But how many have you shot, or had to shoot during a tense moment? I've seen many animals that were shot "well" but didn't seem to understand how they were supposed to respond to the "on paper" terminal ballistics. I served with many men who had been in combat, but I can't speak to that experience by mere close association with fellow troops WITH actual experience.

 

[SweaterDood]

But how many have you shot, or had to shoot during a tense moment? I've seen many animals that were shot "well" but didn't seem to understand how they were supposed to respond to the "on paper" terminal ballistics. I served with many men who had been in combat, but I can't speak to that experience by mere close association with fellow troops WITH actual experience.

Already said I hadn’t shot a bear. Don’t plan to, either. However, stress only affects the shooter, not terminal performance of the bullet.

Here’s a different rationale.

Let’s compare with the 26 Nosler cartridge. “On Paper” ballistics for a 130gr SMK, MV = 3350fps (middle of the road from the manual), @ 100yds:
Velocity = 3160fps
Energy = 2890 lbs*ft

Now the 25-06. 131gr B, MV = 3250fps (easily obtained), @ 100yds:
Velocity = 3090 fps
Energy = 2780 lbs*ft

I can’t think of a single animal on the planet that a 26 Nosler won’t take adequately. So, to me, the .007” of bullet diameter, 0-10gr bullet weight, 50-100 fps (when talking about 3200+ range), and 3% difference in energy don’t scare me away from saying the same of the 25-06. You can make your own decision, that’s the beauty of free will.

As for penetration I have shot a few of these 131 blackjacks through a 1/2” mild steel brake rotor with a watermelons behind it. Anecdotal, but again I can’t imagine a bear skull would do any better within 100yds.

 

[Downeast]

I've shot a few bears and critters for work. Bears seem to die quite easily. Maybe its because they are more intelligent than your run of the mill varmints. You can teach bears tricks but you can't teach a deer a damn thing. They are like robots. But bears... Oh no! I've been shot! I'm coming 'Lizbeth!

 

[LAH]

But bears... Oh no! I've been shot! I'm coming 'Lizbeth!

Fred had a way with words.

 

[AckleymanII]

SweaterDood, you are igorant of how Apex predators effect wild life populations. For instance, Coyote populations have to be reduced by 75% per year for the population to remain stable.​

 

[Nomosendero]

Shoot them when you can!!

 

[mauser284]

I have been asking for heavier .25 bullets for over 20 years. It is absolutely moronic that demand for heavier .25 bullets and faster twist for factory 25-06 rifles has not been demanded. Same thing for .243 Win it is absolutely stupid that the /243 Win has been handicapped for the last 30 years with slow twist barrels and crappy bullet selection!!!

You should not have to custom build a .243 Win just to get a decent twist rate to handle heavy ELD's. I stop just short of saying that companies that build such rifles should burn in hell forever so what ever is less harsh than that but still darn harsh is how I feel about this.

If this is because of SAAMI than we have to abolish that organization and reform it. Standards are a great starting point but once the standard becomes out of date it needs to have some way of easily and quickly being updated to recognize advancements in technology. That said I just do not know enough about SAAMI and Manufacturing firearms! I am not talking about compromising safety either.

 

[PigButtons]

I have been asking for heavier .25 bullets for over 20 years. It is absolutely moronic that demand for heavier .25 bullets and faster twist for factory 25-06 rifles has not been demanded. Same thing for .243 Win it is absolutely stupid that the /243 Win has been handicapped for the last 30 years with slow twist barrels and crappy bullet selection!!!

You should not have to custom build a .243 Win just to get a decent twist rate to handle heavy ELD's. I stop just short of saying that companies that build such rifles should burn in hell forever so what ever is less harsh than that but still darn harsh is how I feel about this.

If this is because of SAAMI than we have to abolish that organization and reform it. Standards are a great starting point but once the standard becomes out of date it needs to have some way of easily and quickly being updated to recognize advancements in technology. That said I just do not know enough about SAAMI and Manufacturing firearms! I am not talking about compromising safety either.

Don't hold back mauser, tell us what you really think. I like it when a man speaks his mind.

 

[SweaterDood]

SweaterDood, you are igorant of how Apex predators effect wild life populations. For instance, Coyote populations have to be reduced by 75% per year for the population to remain stable.​

That is a rather hasty conclusion.

I don’t consider coyotes an Apex predator. A predator, yes, but also a pest and invasive. If there were no coyotes then bobcats (a more true Apex predator) and foxes would fill the top spot, albeit a low one. True Apex predators (wolves, bears, tigers, lions, etc.) don’t breed at a high rate and don’t need culling, like coyotes do. And yes, we shoot as many as we can.

 

[AckleymanII]

SC wild life put out a camera by a coyote den in the Spring. A single pair of coyotes brought in 22 fawns to the den for the pups to eat.

Now, what other Predator in SC is going to be at the top of the food chain?
In this Southern ego system, Coyotes are at the top of the food chain....call it what you will. Coyotes have cut the deer population by at least 60% here.

 

[Bill Norris]

SC wild life put out a camera by a coyote den in the Spring. A single pair of coyotes brought in 22 fawns to the den for the pups to eat.

Now, what other Predator in SC is going to be at the top of the food chain?
In this Southern ego system, Coyotes are at the top of the food chain....call it what you will. Coyotes have cut the deer population by at least 60% here.

And they are definitely hurting the deer population here in S E N C as well.

 

[nakneker]

I ran a lumber shop in Naknek back in the early 90s. I fished every waking moment I wasn’t working. Bears were a way of life. We had bears frequent the outskirts of town and occasionally cause problems. I can tell you those big coastal bears don’t die easily especially when their adrenaline gets pumping. We had some bad episodes in town. Most the guides in town carried 338 caliber rifle or larger rifles and they shot heavier bullets, not for moose but for bear protection, or to use as a back up on a bear hunt. I’ve listened to a lot of stories and I don’t think You’d catch me carrying a mid bore rifle in that country. I went moose hunting a few times on the peninsula and carried a 338 win mag, not so much for the moose but for the bears. Interestingly enough many of the locals hunted moose with smaller rifles during the December hunt when the bears we’re hibernating, IMO an elk can take more punishment than a moose. At least thatS what I’ve seen.

As far as predators they are starting to really affect our game populations in Arizona. Since they cut back on the lion season our game cameras are filling up with lion pics, instead of seeing a lone lion once in awhile now we are seeing groups of lions and more of them. Wolves are making a huge impact, sad to See our healthly populations of deer and elk get hammered by these predators,

The mighty 25-06 is one of my favs. My Uncle bought one when I was a kid and shot a young two point buck on the Kaibab that year. He sold it because is bloodshot the front shoulders, he liked deer meat. That put it on my radar and I’ve had few since then, love them. Great cartridge. With these heavier bullets it should be a very capable combo.

That buck lived in a canyon way off the beaten path. We’ve hunted there for years. We have 11 years worth of pictures of that buck and never told a soul. Now when we ride our horses back there we see less and less game and we find elk and deer carcasses every trip. Big bucks aren’t seen anymore, the elk are feeling it too. Predators need to be kept in check.

 

[TC260]

With my limited experience of 50+ years using the 25-06, I would just say, 'if you would like to shoot more than the 120 grain bullets, get a 270 Winchester'. I'm just not a 'heavy for caliber' guy. Lots of opinions on this and I will admit limited knowledge.

High BC's are mostly what people are after with the heavy 25's, not so much an increase the lethality.

 

[AckleymanII]

This hand call, set on long range has called in bears and lions for me. Calling in a bear with a hand call is second only to treeing a lion while riding mules.

Lohman Jackrabbit/Cottontail/Coaxer Distress Circe Three Calls In One MVP-4 | eBay

The Three Calls in One features jackrabbit, cottontail and coaxer distress cries combined into one easy-to-use tool. Quickly twist the mouthpiece to select the desired distress call based on the range of the predator.

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