6mms are a good option for burning up some varget in f open. A dasher or bra running a 109 pretty hot isn’t giving up much to anything at 600 yards.
.223 looking smarter in 2021 and beyond?
- Thread starter davidjoe
- Start date
Liven The Dream
Gold $$ Contributor
I am with you . 6mm BR, Dasher etc. will be heads and shoulders better than a .223 . The amount of Powder is close.
I do shoot a .223 . Dasher and .284 I have a fair idea ?
Fast 6’s are probably about unbeatable out to 600 in Open. I don’t think I can remember a dasher ever finishing much away from the top, at midrange. I first chambered a .243 for 115 DTAC’s for 600, before any 7’s, once I had reached my limits with the heavy savage 6BR’s, and looking back, it really was a great round.
One of the taunts of the .223 is that it just sits so still when firing. In this one regard a .308 can’t compete with it and so in terms of sheer rifle accuracy, before the distance where wind muddies the waters, small cartridges like it dominate close range BR. The .308 simply can’t shoot as small close in.
Then the other tease is that the pow(d)er to bullet weight ratio of the two cases is skewed in favor of .223 by so much. There’s a casual correlation between low wind bucking and low powder weight to bullet weight ratio.
I actually did shoot 27.0 grains of Varget with moly 80’s recently, no problems, my gun. By ratio (don’t try), 155’s would need the completely implausible 54.0 grains of Varget (far over pressure if it did fit, even though a correct powder choice for that bullet weight). We know that 54 grains is the working capacity of the .284, not a .308. For those middle-weight bullets, the .223 loaded stout likely can shoot inside .308 to 600 or past it, but 155.5 is no rule, here. (90/25.0 versus 200/44.5, on the heavy end.)
For years the old VLD 90’s on paper could chase the drift of the .308, but then in the last 24 months or so, the 90 A-Tips and 95 SMK’s were released, which on paper might catch it. It also doesn’t hurt that powder goes so far with them.
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Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Since having my first .223 Rem F-TR rifle built that was dedicated to shooting 90 VLDs back in 2014, I have shot a LOT of them. I have also shot many of the 80.5 Fullbore bullets in a .223 Rem F-TR "practice" rifle. Until relocating from southern Kalifornia a while back, I shot the 90 VLDs regularly in all the monthly club matches we had available in the area, including matches at 300, 600, and 1000 yd, as well the occasional state/regional match in other locations. During the first 3 years or so of using the 90 VLDs, I also had a couple .308 Win F-TR rifles, in which I was loading 185 Juggernauts and 185 Hybrids at the time.
During that time, I have often heard the opinion voiced that there are some intangible and/or undefined features of heavy .224" bullets that somehow make them behave in a way not accurately predicted by ballistic calculators at longer distances (i.e. out to 1000 yd). The consensus amongst people expressing that opinion is that they somehow exhibit more wind deflection than would be predicted from their velocity and BC. I have never, repeat never, observed such a phenomenon. In my hands, the 90 VLDs have always behaved exactly as would be predicted from their velocity and BC, regardless of the distance, at least out to a distance of 1000 yd, which is the farthest I have ever used them. I used to regularly compare the performance of my 185 Juggernaut/Hybrid loads to that of the 90 VLDs at 1000 yd matches. Although it is difficult to accurately quantify such differences due to even subtle changes in wind conditions and temperature, even in consecutive matches, my overall conclusion was that in my hands, the 90 VLDs running at 2840-2850 fps from a 30" barrel experienced slightly less wind deflection than my 185 Juggernaut load at ~2730 fps from a 30" barrel, but slightly more wind deflection than my 185 Hybrid load (also ~2730 fps). This is exactly the behavior ballistic calculators predict for those three bullets based on the BCs and velocities I was obtaining.
I find the notion that somehow heavy .224" bullets experience more wind deflection that would be predicted from their BC/velocity at longer distances simply does not match with my direct observations obtained from firing more than ten, and possibly as many as twenty to twenty five thousand of the 90 VLDs. One possible reason I can imagine such opinions might have arisen is the velocity variance observed with typical .223 Rem and .308 Win F-TR loads. As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, most .223 Rem F-TR reloaders cannot reliably obtain the same low ES/SD values that are possible with comparable .308 Win loads. In my hands, 10-15 fps ES values are readily obtainable for .308 Win loads, whereas 18-25 fps would be a more common range for the .223 Rem loads. For obvious reasons, larger ES/SD values for a given load at 1000 yd mean the potential greater vertical dispersion, which generally means losing a few more points "out the corners" in an F-TR match.
Another reason may have to do with the use of bullets in the 80-something gr weight class as opposed to the 90 VLD, 90 SMK, 88 ELDM, 95 SMK, 90 A-tip, etc. As I mentioned, I had a .223 Rem F-TR "practice" rifle built. This rifle was set up and throated to shoot factory 77 gr loads, but also worked very well with the 80.5 Fullbore bullet. One of the practice ranges I had access to a little way north of San Diego had wind conditions almost identical to range 103 at Camp Pendleton, where one of our monthly club matches was held. Typical wind conditions at both of those ranges in the early afternoon would be from about 10-12 to as high as 15-18 mph from ~7:30 to 8:30. When compared to groups fired at 600 yd with the 90 VLDs or 185 Juggernaut/Hybrid loads in those wind conditions, my practice groups with the 80.5s looked more like a precision shotgun than a precision rifle. It was just that much more difficult for me to read those kind of wind conditions tight enough to use the lighter 80.5 bullets on the F-TR 600 yd target. I can imagine that someone observing similar behavior might easily interpret it to mean that heavy .224" bullets undergo far greater wind deflection than heavy .308" bullets, which is quite true. However, it is not unpredicted behavior, and the results I observed with the 80.5s also matched very well to the wind deflection predicted by ballistic calculators from their BC and velocity. Their behavior was not unpredictable, it's merely that my wind reading skills were insufficient to use them with the same precision that I could obtain with either 90 VLDs or 185s.
In order to come up with a .223 Rem that had a realistic chance of being competitive with current .308 Win F-TR loads in moderate to challenging conditions at 1000 yd, there are a couple criteria that would have to be met, IMO. First, a bullet with a slightly greater BC than the 90 VLD would be necessary. In my hands, both the 88 ELDM and 95 SMK bullets have slightly higher BCs than pointed 90 VLDs. Pointed 90 VLDs typically generate predicted G7 BCs very close to 0.290. The SMK 95s are closer to the 0.295 range, and the the 88 ELDMs come in at something like 0.305. The real question is whether that is enough of an increase in BC. My gut feeling says, "No". Given its slightly higher weight, it is possible that 90 A-tip bullet may satisfy this criterion. Hornady's advertised BC for this bullet is 0.295, whereas the advertised value for the very similar 88 ELDM is 0.274. Recall that in my hands, the 88 ELDM G7 BC value predicted from LabRadar data is something more like 0.305. The difference between my measured value and the advertised value could easily be due to the use of LabRadar data, which is not ideal, but it could also be due to the advertised value being slightly conservative. Regardless, the BC values I generate using LabRadar data should be more than sufficient for rough comparison, even if they're spot-on accurate. In other words, the same caveats regarding the methodology used to generate the BC numbers should hold true across the range of bullets tested. So it's possible that by using my BC estimation method, the 90 A-tips might yield a G7 value somewhere in the 0.310 to 0.320 range. However, I have never fired any of the A-tip bullets and so this estimate is solely a guess based on the two relative G7 BC values provided by Hornady for the 88 ELDM and the 90 A-tip. Nonetheless, the 90 A-tips MIGHT have a sufficient BC to give the .30 cal 200s a run for their money at 1000 yd.
That leads me to the 2nd criteria I believe a .223 Rem setup would have to have in order to have a realistic chance at competing on a level playing field with the 308s and 200 gr bullets. Specifically, the issue of the .223 Rem generally having almost double the ES/SD values of .308 loads needs to be solved. I have never turned necks in any of my .223 Rem or .308 Win cases. However, I was helping a friend set up a tune a .223 Rem F-TR rifle with 90 VLDs a year or two ago and he simply could not get the ES values below 30-40 fps. No matter what he did with regard to brass prep, powder weight, primers, etc, the ES values remained quite high, even for a .223 Rem F-TR load. Fortunately, he was able to solve the issue by turning necks, which brought his ES values down to a more acceptable 20-25 fps range. I can imagine if he was able to achieve such a reduction in ES by turning necks, perhaps someone that was already producing ES values of around 18-25 fps with their .223 Rem F-TR loads in brass with un-turned necks might be able to drop that down a little closer to the typical values observed with .308 Win loads.
Between finding a heavy .224 bullet with a just a bit higher BC and somehow reducing the ES/SD of typical .223 Rem F-TR loads, it is my belief it could well be possible to come up with a .223 Rem F-TR setup that would allow one to run on a more even par with the typical .308 Win 200 gr bullet loads in common use at this time. As I have already suggested numerous times, a 0.219" bore barrel would also be an integral part of such a setup, possibly as long as 32" to try and get every last bit of performance possible. Whether such an approach would actually work remains to be seen (and tested). I currently have more than enough rifles, barrels, and loads to keep me busy, so I don't anticipate doing anything like that in the near future. However, it would be an interesting experiment.
During that time, I have often heard the opinion voiced that there are some intangible and/or undefined features of heavy .224" bullets that somehow make them behave in a way not accurately predicted by ballistic calculators at longer distances (i.e. out to 1000 yd). The consensus amongst people expressing that opinion is that they somehow exhibit more wind deflection than would be predicted from their velocity and BC. I have never, repeat never, observed such a phenomenon. In my hands, the 90 VLDs have always behaved exactly as would be predicted from their velocity and BC, regardless of the distance, at least out to a distance of 1000 yd, which is the farthest I have ever used them. I used to regularly compare the performance of my 185 Juggernaut/Hybrid loads to that of the 90 VLDs at 1000 yd matches. Although it is difficult to accurately quantify such differences due to even subtle changes in wind conditions and temperature, even in consecutive matches, my overall conclusion was that in my hands, the 90 VLDs running at 2840-2850 fps from a 30" barrel experienced slightly less wind deflection than my 185 Juggernaut load at ~2730 fps from a 30" barrel, but slightly more wind deflection than my 185 Hybrid load (also ~2730 fps). This is exactly the behavior ballistic calculators predict for those three bullets based on the BCs and velocities I was obtaining.
I find the notion that somehow heavy .224" bullets experience more wind deflection that would be predicted from their BC/velocity at longer distances simply does not match with my direct observations obtained from firing more than ten, and possibly as many as twenty to twenty five thousand of the 90 VLDs. One possible reason I can imagine such opinions might have arisen is the velocity variance observed with typical .223 Rem and .308 Win F-TR loads. As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, most .223 Rem F-TR reloaders cannot reliably obtain the same low ES/SD values that are possible with comparable .308 Win loads. In my hands, 10-15 fps ES values are readily obtainable for .308 Win loads, whereas 18-25 fps would be a more common range for the .223 Rem loads. For obvious reasons, larger ES/SD values for a given load at 1000 yd mean the potential greater vertical dispersion, which generally means losing a few more points "out the corners" in an F-TR match.
Another reason may have to do with the use of bullets in the 80-something gr weight class as opposed to the 90 VLD, 90 SMK, 88 ELDM, 95 SMK, 90 A-tip, etc. As I mentioned, I had a .223 Rem F-TR "practice" rifle built. This rifle was set up and throated to shoot factory 77 gr loads, but also worked very well with the 80.5 Fullbore bullet. One of the practice ranges I had access to a little way north of San Diego had wind conditions almost identical to range 103 at Camp Pendleton, where one of our monthly club matches was held. Typical wind conditions at both of those ranges in the early afternoon would be from about 10-12 to as high as 15-18 mph from ~7:30 to 8:30. When compared to groups fired at 600 yd with the 90 VLDs or 185 Juggernaut/Hybrid loads in those wind conditions, my practice groups with the 80.5s looked more like a precision shotgun than a precision rifle. It was just that much more difficult for me to read those kind of wind conditions tight enough to use the lighter 80.5 bullets on the F-TR 600 yd target. I can imagine that someone observing similar behavior might easily interpret it to mean that heavy .224" bullets undergo far greater wind deflection than heavy .308" bullets, which is quite true. However, it is not unpredicted behavior, and the results I observed with the 80.5s also matched very well to the wind deflection predicted by ballistic calculators from their BC and velocity. Their behavior was not unpredictable, it's merely that my wind reading skills were insufficient to use them with the same precision that I could obtain with either 90 VLDs or 185s.
In order to come up with a .223 Rem that had a realistic chance of being competitive with current .308 Win F-TR loads in moderate to challenging conditions at 1000 yd, there are a couple criteria that would have to be met, IMO. First, a bullet with a slightly greater BC than the 90 VLD would be necessary. In my hands, both the 88 ELDM and 95 SMK bullets have slightly higher BCs than pointed 90 VLDs. Pointed 90 VLDs typically generate predicted G7 BCs very close to 0.290. The SMK 95s are closer to the 0.295 range, and the the 88 ELDMs come in at something like 0.305. The real question is whether that is enough of an increase in BC. My gut feeling says, "No". Given its slightly higher weight, it is possible that 90 A-tip bullet may satisfy this criterion. Hornady's advertised BC for this bullet is 0.295, whereas the advertised value for the very similar 88 ELDM is 0.274. Recall that in my hands, the 88 ELDM G7 BC value predicted from LabRadar data is something more like 0.305. The difference between my measured value and the advertised value could easily be due to the use of LabRadar data, which is not ideal, but it could also be due to the advertised value being slightly conservative. Regardless, the BC values I generate using LabRadar data should be more than sufficient for rough comparison, even if they're spot-on accurate. In other words, the same caveats regarding the methodology used to generate the BC numbers should hold true across the range of bullets tested. So it's possible that by using my BC estimation method, the 90 A-tips might yield a G7 value somewhere in the 0.310 to 0.320 range. However, I have never fired any of the A-tip bullets and so this estimate is solely a guess based on the two relative G7 BC values provided by Hornady for the 88 ELDM and the 90 A-tip. Nonetheless, the 90 A-tips MIGHT have a sufficient BC to give the .30 cal 200s a run for their money at 1000 yd.
That leads me to the 2nd criteria I believe a .223 Rem setup would have to have in order to have a realistic chance at competing on a level playing field with the 308s and 200 gr bullets. Specifically, the issue of the .223 Rem generally having almost double the ES/SD values of .308 loads needs to be solved. I have never turned necks in any of my .223 Rem or .308 Win cases. However, I was helping a friend set up a tune a .223 Rem F-TR rifle with 90 VLDs a year or two ago and he simply could not get the ES values below 30-40 fps. No matter what he did with regard to brass prep, powder weight, primers, etc, the ES values remained quite high, even for a .223 Rem F-TR load. Fortunately, he was able to solve the issue by turning necks, which brought his ES values down to a more acceptable 20-25 fps range. I can imagine if he was able to achieve such a reduction in ES by turning necks, perhaps someone that was already producing ES values of around 18-25 fps with their .223 Rem F-TR loads in brass with un-turned necks might be able to drop that down a little closer to the typical values observed with .308 Win loads.
Between finding a heavy .224 bullet with a just a bit higher BC and somehow reducing the ES/SD of typical .223 Rem F-TR loads, it is my belief it could well be possible to come up with a .223 Rem F-TR setup that would allow one to run on a more even par with the typical .308 Win 200 gr bullet loads in common use at this time. As I have already suggested numerous times, a 0.219" bore barrel would also be an integral part of such a setup, possibly as long as 32" to try and get every last bit of performance possible. Whether such an approach would actually work remains to be seen (and tested). I currently have more than enough rifles, barrels, and loads to keep me busy, so I don't anticipate doing anything like that in the near future. However, it would be an interesting experiment.
Left to right:
1) 80 SMK I tipped (if limited to a 7 twist my best scorer, able to be shot so much faster I query whether it can hold its own);
2) 90 VLD from box, a 7 twist might be borderline;
3) 90 VLD I tipped;
4) Hornady A-Tip 90 (tiny grouping, not tippable);
5) SMK 95 tipped from factory, claimed highest BC of them all but longest bodied as shadow lines in picture, by a lot.
Ned, the main surprise in your figures above is that the 88 ELDM G7 is so high, especially relative to the 95 SMK.
I haven’t ever bought or tried any 88’s though, I’d just think and hope Hornady would be certain to significantly improve upon them since it charges nearly as much for a 90 A-Tip as a 190 A-Tip, the most of the lot.
Also, if the bore would be increased to prevent burst bullets, I wonder if the accuracy or velocity would decline.
I have cursed and praised a certain set of barrels that burst (rarely) 7 mm bullets, suspected by me to be tight bored in addition to 5R, but they turned out to be the only ones I paid again to set back, so far, even with a pile of chambered newbies. (I used to strive shoot saum’s loaded with Re powders to the fastest speeds I could get without any accuracy decline, until I learned about blowup potential.)
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Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I have not compared/estimated BC of the 88 ELDMs and 95 SMKs side-by-side. Given the caveats of using LabRadar velocity drop data to estimate BCs, I am more confident in direct side-by-side comparisons. Nonetheless, the BC estimates I have generated seem to be very reproducible across different range trips and conditions.
My comment above was simply aimed at suggesting that because my G7 BC estimate for the 88 ELDM was higher than the advertised value, IF the same holds true for the 90 A-tip, it ought to be getting close to the BC realm that might allow it to keep up ballistically with .308s using 200s. The two bullet designs seem to share some common features. I don't currently have any .223 Rem F-TR rifles that are set up even close to what I would consider "optimal" for the 90 A-tip, so I probably won't be doing that experiment any time soon, if ever. However, anyone with a LabRadar that already has loads developed for both the 88s ELDMs and 90 A-tips could do it very easily. Even just a BC estimate for the 90 A-tip by itself would be sufficient.
My understanding coming directly from individuals using 0.219" bore barrels, as well as indirectly from individuals at a well-respected barrel maker, is that the .0005" increase (per side) in bore diameter does not negatively impact precision, or anything else, for that matter. Along the same line, for years I always used 0.299"/0.300" Bartlein 5R .308 barrels, simply because that is what my gunsmith used on my original .308 builds and they shot extremely well and I try never to fix something that isn't broken. In more recent years, I have obtained and supplied my own barrel blanks, and it is usually much easier and faster to find a 0.300"/0.308" Bartlein or Kreiger blank at a barrel vendor, rather than ordering the 0.299" bore blanks direct from the manufacturer, unless you might need some specific contour that isn't readily available from barrel vendors. The point is that I have not been able to detect any differences between the 0.299" and 0.300" bore barrels. Initially, I had no idea whether there would be some difference or negatives associated with the larger 0.300" bore, but there haven't been. Accuracy/precision, velocity, barrel life, etc., all seem to be identical in my hands, such that I cannot tell any difference between the two. I suspect it is exactly the same with the 0.218" vs 0.219" bore .224" barrels. The real key with the heavy .224" bullets and barrel/bore configuration is that accuracy/precision doesn't mean much if the jacket fails and the bullet doesn't make it to the target.
When I had this reamer made it because the 90 grain bullets were really hard to get. It was purposely made for the 80.5 gr Bergers. I haven't shot it past 600 yards. It did take me to High Master at Mid Range. What freebore are you typically for the 88-95 gr bullets. I might have my barrel throated a little longer.
Thanks again
Thanks again
Just a friendly reminder....the last 7 (SEVEN) years in a row MR nationals has been won by a 300wsm....back to your regular scheduled program.
Just a friendly reminder....the last 7 (SEVEN) years in a row MR nationals has been won by a 300wsm....back to your regular scheduled program.
It’s everything that’s good about the .308, down to liking the same bullets. Same action will handle both. I think the two cases stand the exact same height, maybe identical neck lengths. Neither one has short barrel life. Neither one blows up bullets. Both get good SD’s. Brass primer pockets last a long time in both. Just plumper.
300 WSM (bottom)
.223 (top)
***It sure is at the top a lot. I believe that those using it, were generally finishing very high before they switched to it, but yep, you never hear of anyone saying it held them back, at any distance. I don’t see guys going back to their earlier calibers after using them, or very often having different calibers for different distances, or for low wind.
Probably not many fast 6’s brought out in recent MR nationals, because a normal human that could run one well would still have to make a switch for LR; I only know one guy that would truly threaten every gun with 6’s, at every distance. ***
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Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I think you could easily go with a freebore of 0.250" to 0.275" with the 88s and 95s. Presumably, the 90 A-tips would also work well with that freebore length. The longest .223 Rem freebore I have in a barrel is 0.220". IMO - although the 0.220" fb works for them, the 88s and 95s would be better served with an even longer freebore. Their boattail/bearing surface junctions are not below the neck/shoulder junction with the 0.220" fb, but they're sunk pretty far down in the neck. Both of those bullets have very long bearing surfaces, and thus require a very generous freebore to seat them optimally.
The problem with throating a .223 Rem out that far is that it may not be useful for many (if any) other bullets. For example, with the 0.169" fb cut by PTG's 223 Rem ISSF reamer, you can still readily load the 80.5 Fullbore bullet, the 85.5s, etc. Even though the 90 VLDs are seated a bit deep in the neck with 0.169" fb, they also shoot well. So it becomes an issue of effectively having a barrel chambered so that it will only work optimally with two or three of the very longest/heaviest .224" bullets. The risk is that if those bullets shoot really well in such a setup, you're GTG, but if not, you might end up with a tomato stake.
For me, the freebore question reminded me of buying kids’ shoes and jeans just a bit large. Since the twist was so fast, I could live with a dedicated heavy bullet gun, but the possibility of a short round count life wasn’t appealing. I didn’t know what to expect as to when it would happen, but I knew that when the throat was to grow too long for these bullets, and as I don’t have a lathe, there’s not anywhere to go with such a barrel. (Unlike a .308 barrel to 300 WM down and dirty quickie chamber job that might just solve a worn throat problem with one simple reaming and no length cutting (?). I chose with these recent 6.5 twist barrels to chase the lands on a standard PTG reamer’s chamber.
I expected my freebore to begin sub-optimal, possibly really limiting case capacity and impairing the velocity I could get. As Ned indicated, it was still workable with the VLD’s. With the SMK 95’s, I was ringing bullet noses more than I like, to seat on 23.0 grains, and that was the absolute least powder I felt the bullet is worthy of the benefit of having. While accurate there, i believe they would be equally accurate up to a grain+ warmer and come into their own in the wind. At 23.5 tested I still think the primer and brass are underutilized as far as competition goes.
Where I prefer to close the bolt on bullets, (seated just at that depth where the lugs wouldn’t know the difference from an empty case) I could see from a bullet beside a round that I had indeed really invaded the case. I would say that if you like two bullets and one of them is the 95, you can get by with a standard throat if you’ll plan to seamlessly transition to the 95’s when the time comes, which might not be very long.
I expected my freebore to begin sub-optimal, possibly really limiting case capacity and impairing the velocity I could get. As Ned indicated, it was still workable with the VLD’s. With the SMK 95’s, I was ringing bullet noses more than I like, to seat on 23.0 grains, and that was the absolute least powder I felt the bullet is worthy of the benefit of having. While accurate there, i believe they would be equally accurate up to a grain+ warmer and come into their own in the wind. At 23.5 tested I still think the primer and brass are underutilized as far as competition goes.
Where I prefer to close the bolt on bullets, (seated just at that depth where the lugs wouldn’t know the difference from an empty case) I could see from a bullet beside a round that I had indeed really invaded the case. I would say that if you like two bullets and one of them is the 95, you can get by with a standard throat if you’ll plan to seamlessly transition to the 95’s when the time comes, which might not be very long.
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1911mag
Gold $$ Contributor
I have been following this thread. In FTR we have 2 calibers to use. I opted for .223 and 90VLD’s because I like a challenge. 2 years later made HM in Mid Range. I know the odds are with .308’s winning it has been proven. I plain just like shooting that as much as 284 Shehane in Open. My wife now shoots the most recent build of .223 and also very close to HM now. I built a 308 to still shoot FTR when I want too. In the right hands a .223 can beat 308’s I have seen it. Just my opinion. Will see how she does Sierra Cup.
Earning NRA F-Class Long Range High Master with a .223 would sure be a feat. I don’t think it has ever been done, at least on the current sized targets, and not very many have, with a .308.
If you're not in FTR specifically, then a 22 BR will do much better in every measure: better brass, better es and vertical, less pressure to hit good nodes. I used mine in 1K BR for a season and was just a touch behind all the 6 BRA and Dasher guys. Shot 6 inch groups at 1k in the wind. Better in practice with good conditions. 3050fps with the 95SMK out of a 28" 7 twist barrel. It shot the 90 VLD and 88ELD very well too. To date, it's been the easiest rifle I've ever tuned and it changed my perspective on what small groups actually are. 0.375 inches at 300 often enough that it tipped me down the benchrest rabbit hole. If only it didn't blow up bullets!
jelenko
Gold $$ Contributor
Wait, that doesn't sound like low pressure.
No stiff bolt lift and I am now on 15 reloads at that level. It isn't low pressure, but it's not as hard as guys have to push 223 Lapua brass to try to get 2850fps. If I run my 22BR at top 223 speeds, I'm at moderate pressure where the brass will last forever. -just checked my notes, that is with IMR4350, not Varget.
28.2gns of Varget is a magic spot for the 90VLD in my 22BR. It's goes 2980fps.
Another direction to consider, @davidjoe : I can push the new 85.5 Hybrids a solid 150fps faster than the 90gn class. I think it's the shorter bearing surface. I'd be curious to know if 223 shooters see the same velocity advantage with the 85.5. With that much extra speed on the table, the 85.5 "outperforms" the other bullets. I have not got really fine accuracy out of them yet however. Still have a bunch and am playing with them as the mood strikes me. They'll shoot 3 inches at 600yards with not terrible vertical in the ballpark of 1.5inches.
Just anecdotal but what I’ve noticed at matches is the 300wsm seems to hold better accuracy. More like a 6br vertical but with more wind resistance. The 7mms can’t quite keep the vertical as tight and even though the wind resistance from a 284 or 7saum is similar or maybe better on paper than a 300wsm you’re still more likely to lose some out the corners if you’re running an extra inch of vertical over a 300.Just a friendly reminder....the last 7 (SEVEN) years in a row MR nationals has been won by a 300wsm....back to your regular scheduled program.
I think this is backed up with benchrest results too. You see 300wsm winning in long range br but very rarely see a 7mm.
Longtrain
Gold $$ Contributor
I will shoot my 223 in FTR at 300 yd matches, it makes me work a bit, but it’s accurate and fun with a no recoil factor.
Now, my 6 Dasher is my pride and joy, love it to pieces. It hammers all the way out to 900 yards, but, at 1K it gets a little more challenging. It can shoot really well, but it takes a bit more work on windy days to score high. Not that it can’t be done, it can, but more marksmanship is needed IMO, which is ok in my book.
Enter the 7mm’s, they shoot inside a Dasher all day long. The guns that can minimize the wind at 1K are the 7’s. The Dasher is great, but those 180’s running in the high 2900 fps out of a 284 or Shehane, just smoke’em. The big 30’s, that’s another wind slayer with issues of it’s own.
As been said the distance between 900 and 1000 yards is the longest 100 yards in sports. Those 7mm’s make it a little shorter.
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Good observations about the 7’s at 1,000. I have thought for a long time there are elusive wind condition changes that high BC is more likely to save you on. Edge of the range firing points, let ups right before you pull the trigger; getting down range fast with a belligerent bullet can really help.
I’d love to take one of these .223’s to test at 1,000 this weekend at Bayou but I feel compelled to maximize my time before Nationals, so it will be a Saum and 190 A-Tips.
I had not looked at the 88 ELDM’s until yesterday, ever before. I had read some posts about them and when I was pursuing bullets online I was shocked by their reasonable price and ordered a good amount yesterday to try out and to have on hand. They are priced to actually reflect how much less material is used, and then some more change is cut from each bullet putting them at .23 each retail, which makes them irresistible to try at least at a 300 yard match.
I’d love to take one of these .223’s to test at 1,000 this weekend at Bayou but I feel compelled to maximize my time before Nationals, so it will be a Saum and 190 A-Tips.
I had not looked at the 88 ELDM’s until yesterday, ever before. I had read some posts about them and when I was pursuing bullets online I was shocked by their reasonable price and ordered a good amount yesterday to try out and to have on hand. They are priced to actually reflect how much less material is used, and then some more change is cut from each bullet putting them at .23 each retail, which makes them irresistible to try at least at a 300 yard match.
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Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.