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To Turn Necks or Not ?

Jim,

You’re right! Now there’s a lot more cross over. When Billy Stevens and I started annealing PPC brass at matches. Annealing started catching on with short range guys. I was the first guy to show up at short range match with 120i A&D with autotrickler. Now several short range guys use them (full blown with auto dumper) most have a charge master. Very few use a powder throw alone. I was the first one on the line with a labradar (short and 600) and now the line is covered up them.

Bart


Bart, I guess you are never to old to learn..... Jim
 
Years ago when I started LR BR no one could tell me that no turn was as accuarate as turned necks. So I opted for a .268 neck reamer for my 6BR. At that time some of the best 600 and 1000 yard shooters were shooting no turn .272 Dashers, BRX’s, and BR’s. Those shooters included some record holders including Richard Schatz, Mike Davis, Rodney Wagner, Mark Shronce and some others. A few years after doing well with the BR I decided to play with the Dasher and BRX. The BRX was a .272 neck. Even though it was a no turn chamber, I still turned the necks just enough to make the necks completely concentric. That barrel shot well and did it’s share of winning. After listening to Mike Davis who chambered the barrel, he and I argued about the no turn debate several times, I decided to do an experiment. I took my best turned neck brass and shot it against no turn brass(necks I had not touched). I prepped the brass of both batches, only difference is I did not touch the necks except to inside and outside chamfer. This was the same lot of brass in both batches. I did everthing in both batches exactly the same! Same fireforming, same number of rounds on brass, loaded at the same time with exact same components. I shot in the same rifle on a morning at my 600 yard range just after daylight in as near of perfect conditions as posssible- and it was perfect that day. I shot 8, 5 shot groups. Just like a match agg. Four, 5 shot targets with each. I would alternate targets also, one with turned necks, then one with no turned. After I was done, by looking at the targets, I could not tell the difference in groups(verticle, horizontal, etc.) or size of groups. I put the calipers to the groups and measured carefully. As it turned out the two 4 target aggs were with in thousands of each other! The best I can remember it was like 15 thousands difference - IN FAVOR OF THE NO TURN ROUNDS! Now if I repeated this experiment, the turned rounds may have slightly beat the no turn. But this experiment told me there is no difference in the two. I never bought a turn neck reamer after that. Lapua 6BR brass is excellent brass, most all lots are less than one thousand total difference in neck thickness. My opinion is if you run enough clearance in the neck (2-3 thou) no turn necks are just as accurate as turned. Now if I shot a PPC at short range I would opt for a turn neck, basically because everything and everybody is set up for turn necks of .262 to .269. All equipment and data has followed this. Years and years ago, from what I have heard and read, the brass was not as good and concentric as it is today. Turning necks then surely helped. Today, IMO, brass quality has come a long way, just like most all of our components and epuipment has. Do what makes you feel good, but as for me, I am not going to spend all that time turning necks anymore! Samuel Hall
I'm going to print this out and make it a standard handout for people asking me about neck turning. Thanks for sharing the results of your testing. I turned brass for years because it was "the best practice." Like you, I did some extensive testing and could see no difference in the results and now shoot no-turn. My wife shot a perfect 1200-81X at last fall's AZ 600 yard championship....no-turn 284 WIN brass with big fat donuts at the neck-shoulder junction. :) Neck clearance is .007
 
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Remember, EVERYTHING you do, if done correctly, will add to the accuracy level of a rifle / cartridge. There is almost no limit to what you can do. BUT there is usually a limit of what a loader can stand to do! Accuracy is the cumulative effect of what is or is not done. You will eventually get to a point where "the return is not worth the effort" UNLESS you are one of these "I am never satisfied" people. If I didn't turn necks, I might go into vapor lock! However, just because I "think / feel" it is a worthwhile endeavor, does not mean that it in fact is! It has worked for me and I try never to "fix" what 'taint busted! But>>that is just me!
 
@Alex Wheeler just created a thread about a couple of fellas who just broke the 6 match agg and 10 match agg.
I wonder if the two lads were turning necks or not? I'm betting on the former.
CW
 
Very interesting thread, if any one asked me before reading all this I would have said turn them without even thinking about it. Thanks guys, think i will still turn necks just because i can and it makes me feel warm and fuzzy but at least now we know its been tested by the best and we know what the answer is
 
You talk about all of the things that are considered "Necessary" when reloading or shooting. We always joked that if the top shooters would win the match with a "Turd" on the end of their bbls, the next match all would have "Turds"!
"Turd", Herd mentality!!!
 
And I still say if you have a great Barrel you can through in junk brass, Some know little about loading and still kick butt with a good barrel. But you better have the bullets that it wants. Seen guys run out of there special bullet and fell on there face with the rest of us. BARRELS AND BULLETS BOYS AND GIRLS!

Joe Salt
 
I can understand that both turned and unturned yield similar results. What I have a harder time comprehending is why exact charges are necessary when the actual internal capacity as measured by H2O is not.
 
I can understand that both turned and unturned yield similar results. What I have a harder time comprehending is why exact charges are necessary when the actual internal capacity as measured by H2O is not.
I suspect measuring a fired case with water is just telling you the spring back or ductility of that particular case, it doesn't represent the useable volume while the case is under 50-60k psi, under that kind of force it is expanded to the chamber walls and a different (greater) volume then when the pressure is released and the case springs back and is extracted from the chamber.
 
4C61EB76-89C6-4BB8-83D8-C350E1CF4D25.jpeg
New Bartlien barrel 13.5 twist, groups shot at 100 yards. All are three shots. Each group is a different load ranging from 3170 fps to 3390fps. Shot with 6PPC and NO TURN NECK. Reamer is .273 loaded rounds are roughly .270

Looks pretty strong.
Bart
 
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Years ago when I started LR BR no one could tell me that no turn was as accuarate as turned necks. So I opted for a .268 neck reamer for my 6BR. At that time some of the best 600 and 1000 yard shooters were shooting no turn .272 Dashers, BRX’s, and BR’s. Those shooters included some record holders including Richard Schatz, Mike Davis, Rodney Wagner, Mark Shronce and some others. A few years after doing well with the BR I decided to play with the Dasher and BRX. The BRX was a .272 neck. Even though it was a no turn chamber, I still turned the necks just enough to make the necks completely concentric. That barrel shot well and did it’s share of winning. After listening to Mike Davis who chambered the barrel, he and I argued about the no turn debate several times, I decided to do an experiment. I took my best turned neck brass and shot it against no turn brass(necks I had not touched). I prepped the brass of both batches, only difference is I did not touch the necks except to inside and outside chamfer. This was the same lot of brass in both batches. I did everthing in both batches exactly the same! Same fireforming, same number of rounds on brass, loaded at the same time with exact same components. I shot in the same rifle on a morning at my 600 yard range just after daylight in as near of perfect conditions as posssible- and it was perfect that day. I shot 8, 5 shot groups. Just like a match agg. Four, 5 shot targets with each. I would alternate targets also, one with turned necks, then one with no turned. After I was done, by looking at the targets, I could not tell the difference in groups(verticle, horizontal, etc.) or size of groups. I put the calipers to the groups and measured carefully. As it turned out the two 4 target aggs were with in thousands of each other! The best I can remember it was like 15 thousands difference - IN FAVOR OF THE NO TURN ROUNDS! Now if I repeated this experiment, the turned rounds may have slightly beat the no turn. But this experiment told me there is no difference in the two. I never bought a turn neck reamer after that. Lapua 6BR brass is excellent brass, most all lots are less than one thousand total difference in neck thickness. My opinion is if you run enough clearance in the neck (2-3 thou) no turn necks are just as accurate as turned. Now if I shot a PPC at short range I would opt for a turn neck, basically because everything and everybody is set up for turn necks of .262 to .269. All equipment and data has followed this. Years and years ago, from what I have heard and read, the brass was not as good and concentric as it is today. Turning necks then surely helped. Today, IMO, brass quality has come a long way, just like most all of our components and epuipment has. Do what makes you feel good, but as for me, I am not going to spend all that time turning necks anymore! Samuel Hall
And Mr. Hall, I know a guy that shot no turn 6 Grendel and won the 2019 UBR Nationals and runner up in the 2020 UBR Nationals so I think there is something to this, also I have gone to the no turn in the 6 Grendel and won my first ever agg in custom and came in 2nd in the unlimited class so there may be something to this!!
 
Jim,

You’re right! Now there’s a lot more cross over. When Billy Stevens and I started annealing PPC brass at matches. Annealing started catching on with short range guys. I was the first guy to show up at short range match with 120i A&D with autotrickler. Now several short range guys use them (full blown with auto dumper) most have a charge master. Very few use a powder throw alone. I was the first one on the line with a labradar (short and 600) and now the line is covered up them.

Bart
Yes I know it is an old thread BUT still relevant, my first year shooting was 2019 and I started annealing in late 2019, sold that one and went with the AMP and haven't looked back. Annealing is just one of those things that make sense to me. A lot of much better shooters will disagree with me but to each his own.
 

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