.20VarTarg or .20-221 . . . that's the question

[mefizto]

Greetings all,

after changing my mind about million plus times, I have now finally settled on a .20 based on 221 case. According to my reading and inquiries, the main difference - as I understand it, is in the shoulder angle - 23deg vs 30deg and, consequently, a minor difference in volume.

The information regarding the effect on shoulder angle (case growth) is inconsistent, both camps arguing that it is negligible.

So the first question is - what is the availability of dies for either cartridge? Related to that, what would be the appropriate die to resize the 221 case for both; could you please give a specific example what you are using?

Is there a good place to rent a reamer? (If anyone has one to sell for a reasonable price, please let me know).

Kindest regards,

M

 

[L.Sherm]

I would do the vartarg, I like the steeper angle helps with case growth. Accuracy speaks for itself not saying a 20-221 wouldnt. Any dies are tough to come by right now die companys do make the vartarg and for a 20-221 probably just get a 221 fireball FL bushing die and the correct expander.

 

[Cemetery21]

Just me, but I keep it simple: parent case, standard bushing die with a 20 cal bushing (plus one more in-between bushing for initial neck down). So, Redding 221 full length type S sizer with a 20 cal stem and proper bushings. No fireforming. I did it for 20 Practical (3 times), but a buddy did it for 20 Fireball. If they were any more accurate, we would need smaller prairie dogs.

 

[Sniper338]

Lapua discontinued the brass. If you can find it buy a few hundred asap. Should last a long time...

 

[L.Sherm]

And you need the reamer to match the brass.

 

[mefizto]

Greetings all,

thank you for your replies.

So now, since Lapua discontinued the 221 brass, what will all the people with VarTarg do? Reform .222 or .223 brass?

Should I change my mind once more and re-consider 20-222? ;-(

Kindest regards,

M

 

[L.Sherm]

If you turn necks its not hard to reform 223 brass from 223 if you have the stuff to do it

 

[L.Sherm]

About 7 - 8 years ago I got everyhing to make my own 20 vartarg and 20SCC since I have 2 - 20 vartag and a 20 SCC. I got tired of trying to source brass so now I have plenty of LC223 and if I need some I make my own

 

[mefizto]

Hi L.Sherm,

thank you for the reply. Please check your P.M.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[Tommie]

Same as the choice between 20 Tactical vs 20 Practical. Different strokes for different folks. All things considered, a 20-222 may indeed be an easier approach.

 

[B23]

Should I change my mind once more and re-consider 20-222? ;-(

Yes! There's just really nothing not to like about the 20-222.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

I would have thought the 20/223 variants would have been the easiest to form and use the plentiful brass available. Just my few cents.

 

[457ciSBC]

Greetings all,

after changing my mind about million plus times, I have now finally settled on a .20 based on 221 case. According to my reading and inquiries, the main difference - as I understand it, is in the shoulder angle - 23deg vs 30deg and, consequently, a minor difference in volume.

The information regarding the effect on shoulder angle (case growth) is inconsistent, both camps arguing that it is negligible.

So the first question is - what is the availability of dies for either cartridge? Related to that, what would be the appropriate die to resize the 221 case for both; could you please give a specific example what you are using?

Is there a good place to rent a reamer? (If anyone has one to sell for a reasonable price, please let me know).

Kindest regards,

M

For the 20 Fireball I’m using a 20 VT body die in conjunction with a shell holder surface ground .009, Wilson 17FB neck bushing die and Hornady universal .20 seater die. If I run across a 20 VT barrel or gun I can use a reg S/H, Wilson VT neck die that I already have and the Hornady seater.FYI, don’t attempt to use a Redding 17FB S FL die for a 20FB, it won’t work . For brass, I’m hanging on to the Lapua and using Nosler 17FB brass necked up. For my 17M4 I’m still using formed Rem 221 FB brass that I made over 20 years ago.....it works.

 

[457ciSBC]

Greetings all,

thank you for your replies.

So now, since Lapua discontinued the 221 brass, what will all the people with VarTarg do? Reform .222 or .223 brass?

Should I change my mind once more and re-consider 20-222? ;-(

Kindest regards,

M

My intent this year was to do 20-222, got ready to order a reamer from Manson and realized I have a new PTG 20 Fireball reamer. Thus, the 20-222 has been pushed back, but will still happen.

 

[chuckshooter]

I have a personal rule, I don't eat at a restaurant unless it's busy, there's a reason why it busy. same thing with a vartarg. there's a reason why it's so popular . sure it's fun to have a one of a kind wildcat and spend hours making brass and hours working up loads. oh who am I kidding, that's so not for me anymore. I like shooting.

 

[L.Sherm]

I look at it this way, after the Obumma era and component fiasco I try to stay as self sufficient as possible its why I starting making some of my own brass and I can make more if the need arises so I can shoot

 

[B23]

I would have thought the 20/223 variants would have been the easiest to form and use the plentiful brass available. Just my few cents.

Any of them that are straight neck downs are equally easy to make. The OP was talking about a 20-221 and had mentioned a 20-222 which is just a little bigger than the 20-221 not to mention feeds butter smooth from any short action.

The 20 Practical AKA 20-223 also is a great choice and if a person is only going to have one 20 the 20-223 is probably one of if not best 20's to build.

 

[L.Sherm]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any mentioned ive got them in my safe and shoot the all, but for pure raw accuracy that seems like wont shoot anything more than .5 moa no matter what I throw at it is my 20BRAI and 20PPCAI

 

[LCazador]

Greetings all,

after changing my mind about million plus times, I have now finally settled on a .20 based on 221 case. According to my reading and inquiries, the main difference - as I understand it, is in the shoulder angle - 23deg vs 30deg and, consequently, a minor difference in volume.

The information regarding the effect on shoulder angle (case growth) is inconsistent, both camps arguing that it is negligible.

So the first question is - what is the availability of dies for either cartridge? Related to that, what would be the appropriate die to resize the 221 case for both; could you please give a specific example what you are using?

Is there a good place to rent a reamer? (If anyone has one to sell for a reasonable price, please let me know).

Kindest regards,

M

In my opinion going to a bigger case than the fireball case is a waste of powder. The little fireball case generates plenty of steam for even the 40 grain bullets. As far as the shoulder angle I'd stay with the 30 degree which gives much better brass life and throat life. The 30 degree moves the turbulence point inside the case giving less bolt thrust and longer throat life as well. As for the Lapua brass it has a head diameter 1.5 thou bigger than Lake City or Remington brass so take that into consideration when having a reamer made. I first run virgin brass thru my Redding bushing Vartarg die without bushing or decapping stem in place then cutoff excess brass and resize. Brass winds up pretty think in the neck so I neck turn for proper neck tension. I tried the 222 case as well as the 20 tactical but I thought they both gave very short barrel for my liking.

 

[mefizto]

Greetings gentlemen,

first, thank you all for replying, I appreciate it.

My mentioning the 20-222 was due to (1) my indecision between the 0.20 based either on the 221 case or the 222 case, both of which I had been collecting, but not long enough, and (2) the initial reaction to Sniper338 post that Lapua discontinued making the 221 cases. So, your support for the 20-222 is not helping.

The reason for finally selecting the 221 case was that I have a blind magazine Remington Fireball action, and there appears to be a consensus that this particular action does feed the 221 cases well. Once the current craziness abates (I hope) and I will be able to find another Remington 223 action, I might build either 222 or 20-222.

Hi 457ciSBC,

thank you very much for the details on the dies.

Hi LCazador,

I had also attempted to reform the 223 cases. See, https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/reforming-cases-issues.4015888/#post-37886659. My clever friend built a fixture that makes shortening the cases easy and, as importantly, relatively quick. As he has the cases, I cannot measure the thickness of the cases at the neck, but I would think that since the neck is formed from a part of the body, it will be rather thick. So, if I understand, neck turning will be required.

L.Sherm already kindly advised me what tool he is using, but if you can also let me know, it would be great.

Kindest regards,

M