.20VarTarg or .20-221 . . . that's the question

[RegionRat]

And just to be sure... you considered and rejected the 20 Practical?

 

[mefizto]

Hi RegionRat,

yes and yes.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[B23]

In my opinion going to a bigger case than the fireball case is a waste of powder.

Really?!

A 20 VarTarg has 23.5gr H2O and a 20-222 has, depending on the brand of brass, about 27.25gr H2O case capacity. It's not like where talking about a lot of difference here.

I'm guessing the 20PPC, 20BR, and 20BR Improved crowd would largely disagree with you.

 

[LCazador]

Greetings gentlemen,

first, thank you all for replying, I appreciate it.

My mentioning the 20-222 was due to (1) my indecision between the 0.20 based either on the 221 case or the 222 case, both of which I had been collecting, but not long enough, and (2) the initial reaction to Sniper338 post that Lapua discontinued making the 221 cases. So, your support for the 20-222 is not helping.

The reason for finally selecting the 221 case was that I have a blind magazine Remington Fireball action, and there appears to be a consensus that this particular action does feed the 221 cases well. Once the current craziness abates (I hope) and I will be able to find another Remington 223 action, I might build either 222 or 20-222.

Hi 457ciSBC,

thank you very much for the details on the dies.

Hi LCazador,

I had also attempted to reform the 223 cases. See, https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/reforming-cases-issues.4015888/#post-37886659. My clever friend built a fixture that makes shortening the cases easy and, as importantly, relatively quick. As he has the cases, I cannot measure the thickness of the cases at the neck, but I would think that since the neck is formed from a part of the body, it will be rather thick. So, if I understand, neck turning will be required.

L.Sherm already kindly advised me what tool he is using, but if you can also let me know, it would be great.

Kindest regards,

M

I made my own jig that holds 10 cases at a time and I cut with a carbide cutting wheel. I started with the Vartarg in 1995 just after Todd Kindler introduced it. My first action was a Sako L461 repeater but I did one on an XP100 single shot. The little Sako action feeds them smooth as butter without taking your eyes off the scope. Done the 20/222, 20/223, 20 PPC, and the 20 Tactical which I thought those cases were better suited for the 50 grain bullets. For shooting prairie poodles all afternoon nothing beats the 20 Vartarg with 40gr bullets. On a light wind day I can get a great shooting percentage out to 400+ yards.

 

[mefizto]

Hi LCazador,

thank you for the reply, though it seems that I did not ask properly. I do have a tool to shorten the case accurately and quickly. My question was, what tool do you use to turn the necks?

Kindest regards,

M

 

[Reloading Bum]

Consider this. The 20 VarTarg is really easy to work with.

Greetings all,

after changing my mind about million plus times, I have now finally settled on a .20 based on 221 case. According to my reading and inquiries, the main difference - as I understand it, is in the shoulder angle - 23deg vs 30deg and, consequently, a minor difference in volume.

The information regarding the effect on shoulder angle (case growth) is inconsistent, both camps arguing that it is negligible.

So the first question is - what is the availability of dies for either cartridge? Related to that, what would be the appropriate die to resize the 221 case for both; could you please give a specific example what you are using?

Is there a good place to rent a reamer? (If anyone has one to sell for a reasonable price, please let me know).

Kindest regards,

M

I am picking up my Cooper Firearms 20VT on 5/13. My 221 Fireball is dusty.

 

[L.Sherm]

If I was strictly gonna shoot P.D.'s at 600-1000 yards with 20 cals these 2 guns i would take 20BRAI and 20PPCAI shooting 46 and 55 grain bullets the other 5 - 20 cals i have would stay in the safe. They all have there place.

 

[Hal]

Just me, but I keep it simple: parent case, standard bushing die with a 20 cal bushing (plus one more in-between bushing for initial neck down). So, Redding 221 full length type S sizer with a 20 cal stem and proper bushings. No fireforming. I did it for 20 Practical (3 times), but a buddy did it for 20 Fireball. If they were any more accurate, we would need smaller prairie dogs.

I made my own jig that holds 10 cases at a time and I cut with a carbide cutting wheel. I started with the Vartarg in 1995 just after Todd Kindler introduced it. My first action was a Sako L461 repeater but I did one on an XP100 single shot. The little Sako action feeds them smooth as butter without taking your eyes off the scope. Done the 20/222, 20/223, 20 PPC, and the 20 Tactical which I thought those cases were better suited for the 50 grain bullets. For shooting prairie poodles all afternoon nothing beats the 20 Vartarg with 40gr bullets. On a light wind day I can get a great shooting percentage out to 400+ yards.

Do you have any pictures of your trim jig?

Thanks
Hal

 

[JSH]

Interesting thread and thoughts of various case sizes.
I run 204, bone stock factory up to this point. Rifles came along at good to excellent price points. I was gifted a large amount of once fired brass, so that was a plus to get started. Then after having shot it some and getting acquainted with the 204, I looked around for more components.
I ran across a large amount of virgin brass along with 32 and 40 grain Vmax. It was an all or nothing deal. I kept all of the 40’s and 1500 of the 32’s. Now after more shooting I wonder if I didn’t mess up.
The 204 R tends to get hot with extended amount of shooting. So I look to the smaller cases. The 20 Practical is some reduction with a small amount of compromise in speed.
The 20-222, I am still watching and listening to those folks shooting it ;-). Lapua offers brass as well.
The 20-221. The only way you can get these up to speed is with pressure, the way I see it. So where do we stand on pressures?

Just asking questions.
Thanks
Jeff

 

[NorCalMikie]

Never figured out why folks didn't just neck the .221 Fireball brass down to 20, change nothing else, just load and shoot.
Never was too impressed with the 20 VT. Maybe I just didn't give it enough trigger time?
Did have my own reamer cut for the 20 VT with ZERO freebore and a .234 neck so I didn't have to bother turning necks. Wasn't THAT IMPRESSED, so moved on.

 

[L.Sherm]

I hate trimming brass to length on cases so more and more I'm opting to the AI cases its why I like the 20SCC vrs the 20 vartarg. The 20-221 your gonna trim length more vrs the others

 

[mefizto]

Greetings all,

you people are killing me, with all the options. After having made a firm (riiiiight) decision as per the opening post, I am now thinking abou keeping the .221 Fireball, acquiring another action and build a 20-222. One of the reason is, of course, my OCD, the other is that I was looking for VarTarg dies, but they are out of stock everywhere., so I will not be able to shoot.

On the topic of cases growth, since the 20-222 has the 23 deg angle, is there a similar problem with the case growth? What dies do you use for the the 20-222.

Hi NorCalMikie,

out of curiosity, what did you move on?

Kindest regards,

M

 

[B23]

I've had a 20-222 for a couple years now. I use Lapua 222 brass, Redding 222 bushing only die, 222 body die, and their 222 Comp seater die.

I have many guns chambered in cartridges with 30° or less shoulder angles and never seem to have a problem with excessive case growth with any of them. I hear it talked about a fair amount so I guess for some it must be more of a problem but I also think others tend to run their stuff considerably hotter than they think which may lead to them having more case growth too.

 

[mefizto]

Hi B23,

thank you for the details on the dies.

As indicated on a different thread, I am a recoil and report wimp, so I will not be aiming for the highest velocity/pressure.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[NorCalMikie]

out of curiosity, what did you move on?

Just loaded more .221 Fireball ammo. Was working on a 20 VT"short" but didn't like the "short" brass finished product so I got involved with my"20 TCM" Wildcat. So far, maybe 75% worked out but in no real hurry.
When I built my 20 VT rig, I got my own reamer so I didn't have to turn case necks. More time pulling the trigger and less time messing with neck turning. To me, It was a love/hate thing but when I tried it, turned out it really wasn't that bad. Just preferred NOT to have to do that step.

You, speaking about recoil reminded me why I tried the 20 VT "short" round.
On an SP platform, I was trying for the lowest recoil I could get so I could see my hits thru the scope. No "close", but actually see the hits. Couldn't see them at 100 yards but out further, seeing got better. Real close to 100%. Finally went with the "20 TCM" then got sidetracked and built a rifle, custom dies and all.
Forgot all about the SP project. DO need another XP to build into another BR rifle.

 

[mefizto]

Hi NorCalMikie,

that is an interesting story. As I remember by perusing the saubier forum, several people have been working on the 20 TCM.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[bowfisher]

With Lapua pulling out of the 221 brass game, I would go with a 20-222 . I have a 221FB and a 20 SCC, love them both, but I don't have time to form brass from 223 cases, If I can't buy Lapua brass for it, I won't be building it, but that's just my situation. If you are retired and bored, build whatever you want and LC brass it.

 

[bowfisher]

And thanks for the reminder guys, I just picked up another box of Lapua 221FB, which they are only doling out 1 at a time...

 

[pintopete]

Hi NorCalMikie,

that is an interesting story. As I remember by perusing the saubier forum, several people have been working on the 20 TCM.

Kindest regards,

M

M, you have tons of information from all these posts, and a huge amount to consider. You are not alone in this contemplation process. I can share that if you are confused about a decision, one way to consider things is, are you the person who wants to be fireforming brass and getting custom dies, etc? If so, then you can go with anything that tickles your fancy. If you want simplicity, and mostly want to shoot, go with a simple neck down of one you have mentioned, 20-221, 20-222, or 20-223. The latter two may be easier because of brass availability. The most common would be the 20-223 even though I am a .222 guy. Dies are easy for these as others have said. As far as a barrel and rifling, 1:11 twist seems the most successful. Bear in mind what bullets are available. The heaviest is the Hornady 45gr, but most common would be 32gr & 39/40gr. Other bullets would have to be custom right now. Those who have 20 Practical or 20-222 rifles, absolutely love them. In the bulletin portion of this site, or in the articles, there is a great article that had a few contributors. One was WarrenB who built a 20-223 (Practical), and others. There is also info. in the .20 cal tab. Reamers are easy. If you need info on that, just ask. Make sure the reamer design is fairly short for the 32gr bullets. Dies are easy for these simple neck-downs. You have plenty of time to ponder due to the unfortunate situation with materials availability. Everything is delayed.

Best regards, Peter.

 

[mefizto]

Hi bowfisher,

you, as well as pintopete below, are binging an excellent point with the cases availability. I currently do enjoy the reloading process including learning to reform the cases. However, I remember that when I used to shoot skeet and trap, I did initially like loading my own shells. First, it was a new skill to master, second being the wimp I am I was loading reduced loads, and it was cheaper since I was gifted a press and was buying supplies via a club on discount. Later I continued for the latter two reasons; though, I would not go as far as saying that it was a chore, I just put on music and was pulling lever on a progressive press.

My point of this diatribe is that I wonder whether a similar process will not repeat itself, and I will not curse myself. But, nobody can help me with that decision.

Hi pintopete,

thank you for the thoughtful post. Regarding the cases, please see my reply to bowfisher.

I already have the barrel, the members here and on saubier were helpful in steering me to the right direction. My friend is currently blueprinting the .221 Remington action, so the decision is amont the .20VT and the 20-222.

I wish that I had purchased another 700 Remington, Buds had it for under $400, so I could keep the .221FB and thus built 20-222. I think that these two would go well together. But again, no reason to cry over spilled milk, it is what it is.

Kindest regards,

M