Shotgun Question

[timeout]

I know from reading this forum that there are some knowledgeable shotgun people on here. Bypassing all the other points surrounding this matter my question is this: With an over/under shotgun that is equipped with a Red Dot sight, would you say that it an anomaly or commonplace, that the gun would pattern 14" lower @ 40 yards with the bottom barrel than the top one?

 

[KMart]

With an over/under shotgun that is equipped with a Red Dot sight, would you say that it an anomaly or commonplace, that the gun would pattern 14" lower @ 40 yards with the bottom barrel than the top one?

To answer this question, I would say it is an anomaly. Something to consider is that your face to stock contact is the rear sight and to get a shotgun to shoot in the same place every time, your cheek weld must be the same every time. If you raise your cheek up a little, the gun will start to shoot higher. If your cheek is not consistent, maybe the red dot induces some parallax.
Does the bottom barrel shoot 14" low without the red dot? Years ago when O/U were becoming popular. quite a few of them came from the factory with barrels that did not shoot to the same point of aim. And most are a little different.
I hope my rambling is understandable.

 

[timeout]

With an over/under shotgun that is equipped with a Red Dot sight, would you say that it an anomaly or commonplace, that the gun would pattern 14" lower @ 40 yards with the bottom barrel than the top one?

To answer this question, I would say it is an anomaly. Something to consider is that your face to stock contact is the rear sight and to get a shotgun to shoot in the same place every time, your cheek weld must be the same every time. If you raise your cheek up a little, the gun will start to shoot higher. If your cheek is not consistent, maybe the red dot induces some parallax.
Does the bottom barrel shoot 14" low without the red dot? Years ago when O/U were becoming popular. quite a few of them came from the factory with barrels that did not shoot to the same point of aim. And most are a little different.
I hope my rambling is understandable.

Good point on the possibility of some parallax. Friend of mine looking to buy one for turkey hunting. He wanted to be able to run two different choke tubes for short or long range. He was interested in the CZ Reaper but was told of someone that had experienced the 14" low @ 40 problem. He's not looking to buy a real high end O/U just for turkey hunting.

 

[jk80]

Barrel regulation without the red dot sight should be checked. I shoot trap and can't tell you how many people I've seen have a problem with barrels not shooting to point of impact. Even different chokes can be off in the same gun. I'd suggest patterning it without the red dot and start from there. If you're still seeing a problem change chokes and try again.

 

[jackson1]

No experience with Red Dot sights and over and unders. Is the sight adjustable? If so, why not set in the middle of the 2 groups. With a shot gun and 7" between to patterns would seem to me to be passable. Been a clay target shooter and bird hunter most of my life, so again a 7" pattern shift. Horizontally it would be more of a problem to me. Have you shoot multiple pattern tests to make this determination.

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

Krieghoff and Perazzi, Trap, O/U's,.. would NEVER be, "off" that, far !
Shot BOTH competitively for, a couple of Decades and was, a Doubles Trap, Top 10, "champ" in, a Big state.
Consistently averaging,.. 93 to 97 % for many Years at Doubles Trap and have "Patterned", MANY Shotguns / testing Loads and Chokes. Answer is,.. NO for, a GOOD, Quality, Shotgun !
TEST the gun like, jk80 said,.. first !

 

[timeout]

I looked up the make and model shotgun that is in question of firing the 14" low pattern @ 40 yards from the second barrel. Here is a link to it:

GunBroker.com - Error

I wonder if the "Made in Turkey" stamping on it may be a clue as to why it performed so badly, and if it could be inherent in these shotguns? I don't have any experience with CZ products but have read online whereby persons expressed confidence in CZ regarding their purchase of the Colt brand.

 

[Texas10]

Barrel regulation without the red dot sight should be checked. I shoot trap and can't tell you how many people I've seen have a problem with barrels not shooting to point of impact. Even different chokes can be off in the same gun. I'd suggest patterning it without the red dot and start from there. If you're still seeing a problem change chokes and try again.

I never thought to check my O/U for that error, but I see what you're saying. It sure does kill ducks though. However, I just feel the need to have a little fun at your expense. Sorry.....

How does a barrel not shoot to the point of impact?

 

[swd]

I have shot a lot of over unders over the years and like a few others have said the regulation can be all over the place. The only way to know is to pattern them. The best European guns tend to be much better than the better Japanese guns like Browning’s.

 

[swd]

How does a barrel not shoot to the point of impact?

When the barrels are soldered or brazed they need to both be pointing in the place. I have seen them off in both vertical and horizontal. But vertical being the most common.

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

I looked up the make and model shotgun that is in question of firing the 14" low pattern @ 40 yards from the second barrel. Here is a link to it:

GunBroker.com - Error

I wonder if the "Made in Turkey" stamping on it may be a clue as to why it performed so badly, and if it could be inherent in these shotguns? I don't have any experience with CZ products but have read online whereby persons expressed confidence in CZ regarding their purchase of the Colt brand.

I've always shot, German ( Krieghoff ), Japanese ( AKA, Wincheser / Brownings are, OK ), Italian ( Perazzi, my favorite ) and Rem 3200, Shotguns,.. Turk's, NOT so much !,.. HINT, HINT !

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

Personally, I'd sell, the CZ and buy a nice, clean, Japanese Winchester 101 to Hunt with !

 

[timeout]

It sounds like this is an issue with the particular shotgun and not an everyday occurrence with the better O/U shotguns. I can understand not wanting to sink too many $$ in a shotgun that maybe fires a dozen shots per year. OTH, a turkey gun that is 14" low is not worth owning. So if my friend was to purchase one of these new and it had the same result of both barrels not shooting to a relatively close POI when using the same POA, what are the chances that CZ would make it right or replace it? In other words, how is CZ's customer service?

 

[timeout]

Personally, I'd sell, the CZ and buy a nice, clean, Japanese Winchester 101 to Hunt with !

Good idea. I'll suggest that to him. I think a big plus for him is to have a way to mount a Red Dot. Guessing that could be an issue on the 101? I remember a time many years ago that I thought about buying a Ruger Red Label just as a hunting shotgun. I never pulled the trigger though. Pun intended.

 

[INTJ]

I am not hugely into shotguns, but my Winchester 101 Sporting was made in Belgium.

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

My son has, a Ruger Red Label O/U and it shoots GREAT for, him !
Both barrels, "seem" to be,.. bang ON !
A "good" shotgun shooter,.. DOESN'T "need",.. a Red Dot !
When I was younger ( 20 - 40 years, old ), I shot, rising WILD Pheasants, in the Head, when they were coming out of, Irrigation, Ditch bottoms over, the Dogs ! But, in those Days, I shot, 3 week-ends, a Month, usually.
NO need, to be "Precise" with, an ounce or more of, Lead Pellets.

 

[jk80]

I never thought to check my O/U for that error, but I see what you're saying. It sure does kill ducks though. However, I just feel the need to have a little fun at your expense. Sorry.....

How does a barrel not shoot to the point of impact?

Most shotgun doubles, whether s×s or o/u, are soldered together and regulated at that time. Just so you know , I had a beretta that the bottom barrel was shooting so low it was unusable for doubles so it's not just cheap guns that can be a problem. Very few o/u are adjustable. The k-80 I use was able to be changed by swapping out front hangers. It's not a problem for just doubles as I've seen plenty of single barrels off as much as 2, 2 1/2 ' off at 35 yards. If it is the barrels good luck! I've seen only one manufacturer say they'd do something about it. Just pray changing chokes can help! Not bragging, but so you don't think I'm blowing smoke I've made aaa 27 aaa and shot well enough to make my states hall of fame. I've helped more than a few kids shoot well enough that they've gotten full rides to college and the first thing to do with any shotgun after cleaning it is patterning. That's where I always start to get the gun set up and to eliminate any variables that can bite you. Shoot well, good luck and let me know if I can answer any questions or help in any way.

 

[johnfred1965]

Using a rifle balistics calculator as an example, you must enter your sight height to get the proper calculation. I'm guessing the red dot is an inch above the top barrel, which is usually sighted straight down the rib. the bottom barrel will be another inch below that. I don't know if that is considered parralax as someone mentioned, but the offset will induce different impacts

 

[Texas10]

Most shotgun doubles, whether s×s or o/u, are soldered together and regulated at that time. Just so you know , I had a beretta that the bottom barrel was shooting so low it was unusable for doubles so it's not just cheap guns that can be a problem. Very few o/u are adjustable. The k-80 I use was able to be changed by swapping out front hangers. It's not a problem for just doubles as I've seen plenty of single barrels off as much as 2, 2 1/2 ' off at 35 yards. If it is the barrels good luck! I've seen only one manufacturer say they'd do something about it. Just pray changing chokes can help! Not bragging, but so you don't think I'm blowing smoke I've made aaa 27 aaa and shot well enough to make my states hall of fame. I've helped more than a few kids shoot well enough that they've gotten full rides to college and the first thing to do with any shotgun after cleaning it is patterning. That's where I always start to get the gun set up and to eliminate any variables that can bite you. Shoot well, good luck and let me know if I can answer any questions or help in any way.

Well, I've just learned a crap ton about shotguns! Thank you so much for your patience. Now to test your knowledge at bit. My old duck hunting gun is a Browning Citori 12GA field. Beautiful glossy stock finish and the blueing is excellent. Shoots at least as good as I used to...LOL.

So when checking the serial numbers a while back just to satisfy my curiosity, I found....NOTHING online that matched my serial number. An email to Browning and I find that it was one of a special order shipment of 250 sold to.....American Stores, AKA Lucky Supermarkets, a grocery chain originating in CA.

I know it's a pedestrian grade gun, but aren't you as curious as I was about it's origins?

Anyway, now I've got to figure out how to pattern my shotgun. Is there a standard target or load to use?

 

[Rsadams]

No matter what you pick , Beretta is my favorite , but make sure it fits you.... As Kmart said your eyes track the target and the gun tracks what your looking at.... Alot of people take the sites off a shotgun and I personally never use them for flying targets like skeet which I shoot alot of... So if the gun doesn't fit you properly there will always be a problem.... Pick up a bunch of them , find your friends that have nice shotguns and shoot them before buying....
The Browning's don't fit me but the Berettas do and my friend is exactly opposite.. Proper form and fit has alot to do with shotgun sports... Like any other gun sport it takes alot of practice... Good form also helps with kick in 12ga... Bad form equals a nice bruise and a sore shoulder.... There's a reason a good shotgun cost alot and if you're going to shoot it alot a sporting gun is great , if your going to be carrying it around such as hunting , a field gun is a good way to go and a little cheaper.. Plus a good gun will last a lifetime , the cheap ones not so much in my opinion.... Save your money and buy a good one you won't be disappointed...