What Next for Remington & Rem 700?

[INTJ]

All preferences aside, in my lifetime I have watched TWO different bolt action rifles (M-70 and M-700) go from being the most desired and popular to a niche market. It's easy to see how it happened, and it's just the normal market cycle. It does suck when we find something we like and then it falls out of favor and is hard to find. Such is life.....

I was very surprised when this happened to Remington. It used to be the most popular bolt action by a wide margin, with the M-70 a not so close second. ARs may have had a bigger impact on all this than we have really discussed here.

 

[INTJ]

My questioning with a cone bolt had more to do with magazine feeding. But I see how a cone would be fine with CRF as it still has a nice flat surface on the CRF bolt face cut to grab the rounds from a magazine.

I do know this. Everything has to be correct for a CRF to achieve the smoothness in feeding and reliability they are known for.

The pic I posted is of an FN M-70 barrel I chambered. The rifle was originally a 338 Win, and before I had my lathe I had it rebarreled to 340 Wby, though for the 340 I did have to shorten the bolt stop, shorten the ejector, and remove the spacer in the magazine. If fed great as both a 338 and a 340.

The new barrel I chambered is in 33-28 Nosler, which is the same diameter as the RUM and WSM cases. It would not feed from the magazine as a 33-28 Nosler with the 340 setup. When I swapped in a RUM magazine and follower, it started feeding properly again.

When I swapped the barrel on a CZ-550 Safari from .375 H&H to 458 Lott, it would not feed the Lott. Perhaps that is why I was able to buy it so cheap in nearly new condition with the two barrels already headspaced. I sent it to Wayne at AHR and he made feed very well.

With a Rem 700, you can usually rebarrel to just about anything in its original bolt face size and it will feed without mods. 264 Win Mag to 458 Lott is simple.

 

[INTJ]

Heres the deviant with crf claw and coned bolt. Eerily familiar
View attachment 1236024View attachment 1236025

The bolt looks the same--about the only way it can be, but that is a lot of case head protruding. Is it pushed in all the way?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

The bolt looks the same--about the only way it can be, but that is a lot of case head protruding. Is it pushed in all the way?

No

 

[Ledd Slinger]

All preferences aside, in my lifetime I have watched TWO different bolt action rifles (M-70 and M-700) go from being the most desired and popular to a niche market. It's easy to see how it happened, and it's just the normal market cycle. It does suck when we find something we like and then it falls out of favor and is hard to find. Such is life.....

I was very surprised when this happened to Remington. It used to be the most popular bolt action by a wide margin, with the M-70 a not so close second. ARs may have had a bigger impact on all this than we have really discussed here.

All boils down to piss poor management and financial overreach with Remington. They tried to move and build new factories and acquire way too many companies way too fast. It resulted in massive debt from which they could not recover and ultimately forced them to shut down. They should have spent their money on R&D for their own products rather than trying to buy up all those small competing companies just to shut them down.

That is one area where companies like Sturm & Ruger, Beretta, and Nammo have always been very wise. They acquire new companies but not before carefully calculated risk and evaluation. Then they purchase wisely and within their financial means. Remington was out spending money on companies and new meaningless assets like a crackhead who just found a bag full of cash. Lol

 

[JimT]

All boils down to piss poor management and financial overreach with Remington. They tried to move and build new factories and acquire way too many companies way too fast. It resulted in massive debt from which they could not recover and ultimately forced them to shut down. They should have spent their money on R&D for their own products rather than trying to buy up all those small competing companies just to shut them down.

That is one area where companies like Sturm & Ruger, Beretta, and Nammo have always been very wise. They acquire new companies but not before carefully calculated risk and evaluation. Then they purchase wisely and within their financial means. Remington was out spending money on companies and new meaningless assets like a crackhead who just found a bag full of cash. Lol

I’ve posted more than enough verifiable, documented information on the Remington saga on this forum to refute all of the half-baked BS you continually post on the subject. Do yourself a favor and become more educated on the subject!

 

[INTJ]

Gentlemen, I have greatly enjoyed this thread. Yes, I perhaps enjoy poking at Rem 700s a little too much, but the Rem 700 and I had a nasty divorce in 2006.

After experiencing just about every issue you have heard about with the 700 action, the final straw was when I was at the range with a custom #5 barreled 700 with a trued action, and a factory CRF M-70 in an aftermarket stock. Both in 300 Win Mag. The M-70 was shooting smaller groups than the Rem 700. That's when I realized it wasn't the action and I moved to CRF M-70s.

Objectively, I could have gone the opposite way had I started with M-70s......

I think I'll look up that defiance action.......

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Here’s a perfect example of what Remington was doing all over the place. Bought Montana Rifleman company here in Kalispell then shut them down after only a year and laid off all the workers. Now people who had a good job at Montana Rifleman for many years were suddenly without work because Remington only wanted the equipment to outfit their new plant in Alabama. So I saw first hand what they were really up to. Not some half baked BS because I watched it happen in my own home town.

They were pulling this crap all over with other companies. They also bought Bushmaster then laid everyone off. That’s how and why Windham Weaponry came into being.

Remington closing Montana Rifleman in Kalispell

KALISPELL – Remington Outdoor Co. has announced it is closing a gun barrel manufacturer in northwestern Montana and moving its production to Huntsville, Alabama.

missoulian.com

 

[jackieschmidt]

If the NBRSA and IBS did not have two classes set at 10.5 pounds, the custom action game intended for Benchrest Competition would be a lot different. We would be seeing the average custom action weighing around 40+ ounces rather than striving to keep everything below 32 ounces.

I think one of the real innovations in action design as of late is the Bat Neuvo. About the only thing it has in common with the original Mauser and a Remington 700 is it is a turn bolt action. The single biggest departure is the locking lugs being horizontal instead of vertices when in battery.

I wish they would offer it without all of the scalloping and cut away, so you could build a true Heavy Varmint or heavier.

Ask yourself this. In the year 2021, what is the only purpose of a control feed extractor system other than (supposedly) more efficient extraction. The Remington push feed and it’s derivatives has proved it’s self to be an extremely reliable system. If you are a match shooter, someone who may shoot thousands of rounds a year in competitions, ask your self. How many times has a case failed to extract? I have Fired thousands and thousands of rounds through the past 25+ years of competitive shooting, and I can not think of one instance where a case was left in the chamber.

Gun magazines through the years have propagated the superiority of the control feed based on hunting guides in places such as Africa where people hunt game that will kill you. God help you if you put a round in a charging lion and are forced to reload and fire again, and that sorry ass push feed 416 Remington Magnum fails to extract the fired case. How many times has this happened?

Now, granted in that situation you do want something that is 100 percent reliable. But I have never been to Africa and never plan on going. I am not demanding that my Benchrest Rifle be controlled feed in case I decide to go hunt Rino’s with it.

By the way. Mike Walkers original “3 rings of steel” is not a selling “gimmick”. It actually works in the case of a severe overcharge and blown case head. I have personally seen this, where a shooter at Lake Houston Gun Club shot a severe overload in a 300 Win Mag and literally welded the case head into the bolt face. They had to screw the barrel out of the rifle to finally get the bolt open. The bolt had expanded into the barrel counterbore and did exactly what it was designed to do......keep prices of metal out of the shooters brain.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I’ve posted more than enough verifiable, documented information on the Remington saga on this forum to refute all of the half-baked BS you continually post on the subject. Do yourself a favor and become more educated on the subject!

This has all been happening long before their recent troubles. You might need to re-educate yourself with the history of Remingtons dirty business dealings.

Below is an article showing a perfect example of what Remington was doing all over the country. They bought Montana Rifleman company here in Kalispell then shut them down after only a year and laid off all the employees. Now all the people who had jobs at Montana Rifleman, some for many years, were suddenly without work. The real reason Remington purchased them was to repurpose the equipment at their new plant being built in Alabama. Didn’t give a damn about laying off over 150 people. So I saw first hand what they were really up to. Not some half baked BS because I watched it happen in my own home town and got the real story from people who actually worked there.

They were pulling this same crap all over with other companies. They also bought Bushmaster for the equipment then laid everyone off. That’s how and why Windham Weaponry came into being. The list goes on and on.

So don’t act like you know what really went on with Remington. I know first hand how they really did business and the lives they jeopardized. I’m glad Remington went completely under. Hopefully the new owner of Remington isn’t as stupid as the last and the other subsidiaries of Remington fare much better under their respective new owners.

Remington closing Montana Rifleman in Kalispell

KALISPELL – Remington Outdoor Co. has announced it is closing a gun barrel manufacturer in northwestern Montana and moving its production to Huntsville, Alabama.

missoulian.com

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Oh I see. So you read some stuff that Remington out out there and you’re the expert? It’s all verified true because that’s what Remington said was true? This has all been happening long before their recent troubles bud. You might need to re-educate yourself.

Below is an article with a perfect example of what Remington was doing all over the country. They bought Montana Rifleman company here in Kalispell then shut them down after only a year and laid off all the employees. Now the 150+ people who had a good job at Montana Rifleman, some for many years, were suddenly without work because Remington only wanted the equipment to outfit their new plant being built in Alabama. So I saw first hand what they were really up to. Not some half baked BS because I watched it happen in my own home town.

They were pulling this crap all over with other companies. They also bought Bushmaster then laid everyone off. That’s how and why Windham Weaponry came into being.

Remington closing Montana Rifleman in Kalispell

KALISPELL – Remington Outdoor Co. has announced it is closing a gun barrel manufacturer in northwestern Montana and moving its production to Huntsville, Alabama.

missoulian.com

Some brands, like my buddies at rohrbaugh, sold their designs to remington and remington just lost the design. Rohrbaugh was the most sought after concealed carry pistol ever. Remington paid them handsomely to not work anymore, and forgot they bought that company i guess.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Some brands, like my buddies at rohrbaugh, sold their designs to remington and remington just lost the design. Rohrbaugh was the most sought after concealed carry pistol ever. Remington paid them handsomely to not work anymore, and forgot they bought that company i guess.

Yeah there are so many cases of them buying companies and just shutting them down. Total disregard for the livelihood of employees and their families.

 

[jelenko]

Interesting. A key point seems to be what investment will Roundhill make in the Remington firearm business. Seems like if they don't fix the known issues [e.g., primary extraction/timing, trigger] and at least maintain the uniformity of the RR series actions, they probably won't be here after the current firearm market subsides.
I would add that, to prosper, they will, in addition, need to do something to differentiate themselves from the other long gun manufacturers.

Also, what happened to Remington's factory in Alabama? If I've got it right, Remington's best CNC machines were/are in Alabama.

 

[INTJ]

If the NBRSA and IBS did not have two classes set at 10.5 pounds, the custom action game intended for Benchrest Competition would be a lot different. We would be seeing the average custom action weighing around 40+ ounces rather than striving to keep everything below 32 ounces.

I think one of the real innovations in action design as of late is the Bat Neuvo. About the only thing it has in common with the original Mauser and a Remington 700 is it is a turn bolt action. The single biggest departure is the locking lugs being horizontal instead of vertices when in battery.

I wish they would offer it without all of the scalloping and cut away, so you could build a true Heavy Varmint or heavier.

Ask yourself this. In the year 2021, what is the only purpose of a control feed extractor system other than (supposedly) more efficient extraction. The Remington push feed and it’s derivatives has proved it’s self to be an extremely reliable system. If you are a match shooter, someone who may shoot thousands of rounds a year in competitions, ask your self. How many times has a case failed to extract? I have Fired thousands and thousands of rounds through the past 25+ years of competitive shooting, and I can not think of one instance where a case was left in the chamber.

Gun magazines through the years have propagated the superiority of the control feed based on hunting guides in places such as Africa where people hunt game that will kill you. God help you if you put a round in a charging lion and are forced to reload and fire again, and that sorry ass push feed 416 Remington Magnum fails to extract the fired case. How many times has this happened?

Now, granted in that situation you do want something that is 100 percent reliable. But I have never been to Africa and never plan on going. I am not demanding that my Benchrest Rifle be controlled feed in case I decide to go hunt Rino’s with it.

By the way. Mike Walkers original “3 rings of steel” is not a selling “gimmick”. It actually works in the case of a severe overcharge and blown case head. I have personally seen this, where a shooter at Lake Houston Gun Club shot a severe overload in a 300 Win Mag and literally welded the case head into the bolt face. They had to screw the barrel out of the rifle to finally get the bolt open. The bolt had expanded into the barrel counterbore and did exactly what it was designed to do......keep prices of metal out of the shooters brain.

The questionable reliability of push feeds hasn't been driven by magazine articles. It is the result of PHs experiences in Africa hunting dangerous game. A CRF virtually eliminates short stroke and double feed jams that have been a known issue of push feeds since they were first developed in the late 1800s. Feeding jams aren't usually an issue in single shot BR rifle.

The three rings of steel isn't any real advantage. What make an action strong is how well it allows the case head to be surrounded by the barrel. What makes an action safe is how well it controls gas. Rem 700s do both adequately, as do M-70s, Mausers, CZs, Kimbers, Savages, Sakos, Weatherbys, and a plethora of other bolt actions.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I disagree on 700 properly controlling gases. Anyone who has overpressured a factory 700 knows that the gases come right back in your face. Embarrassingly enough, I admit I’ve accidentally done it a few times pushing loads to the max over the years. With the 3 rings of steel design, the gases have nowhere to go but straight back through the bolt body when the primer pocket on a case comes apart. One of those forced points of entry for gas into the bolt body is thru firing pin hole and it comes out the back of the bolt shroud right in your face. In my opinion, the 3 rings of steel is a horrible design that only makes for a weak bolt face and dangerous vent path for gases.

In one instance with a R700 in 204 Ruger, I blew the bolt face apart all around the extractor cut. The horrible design of their extractor makes all of their bolt faces weak in that cut area. I beat the bolt open and found pieces of my broken bolt face and broken extractor spring along with a destroyed case head. I had to rebuild the entire bolt face with a steel bushing
and cut in a Sako extractor since the factory extractor cut was destroyed. It even knocked the trigger sear engagement out of adjustment, disabling it until I re-adjusted the trigger (don’t ask me how that happened). The gases stung like hell when they hit me in the face, but I was ok.
The couple other times were popped primers but not as much over pressure. It etched the bolt face with hot gases but no other real damage. But in all instances hot uncontained gases were directed right into my face.

Had a much higher instance of overpressure in a Ruger M77 tang in 358 Norma Magnum where I was testing an unlisted fast powder and had misjudged my load calculation. First round in the test group using 225gr Partitions read 3279 fps across the chronograph. I was very amazed at the speed and nothing felt out of the ordinary shooting the round. But that was insanely fast so I thought it might have been a chrono error. I went to open the bolt to load the next round and it was welded shut. Took me a long time with the gun in a vice and beating on the handle with a mallet to get it open. Had to pry and dig the case out in chunks from the chamber. In the end there was zero damage to the rifle. I had no clue there was an overpressure at first because the gasses were vented in a safe direction (whatever direction that might be with the M77). Took the rifle out the next weekend being much more careful with my experimental unlisted loads and the rifle shot like nothing had even happened. Didn’t even lose my zero on the scope.

So when it comes to safely venting gases, the 3 rings of steel is a horrible design if you ask me.

 

[grovey]

What is happening to Remington is the same as what happened to Winchester. From 1937-1963 the Model 70 was THE rifle. In 1948 Remington introduced the 721 and 722, which were low end price point rifles they became very popular. They also shot well.

In 1962 the 700 came out and it finally forced Winchester to find a lower cost rifle. Thus the post 64 M-70 came out and was not well received. Later on Winchester reintroduced CRF and settled into a small niche market, where they are today. Those that want a reliable quality hunting rifle for a moderate price buy CRF M-70s. As an action for a custom they offer CRF and are cost effective vs CRF customs.

Remington faced a similar issue when Savage and other low end price point rifles came out. These low end rifles shoot well. So Remington 700s are becoming a niche rifle. You can buy a working rifle for much less, and if you want a higher end rifle there are plenty of high end factory rifles, semi-custom, and customs out there. Unlike CRF M-70s, there are so many actions similar to Remington that there is nothing unique about them.

So I think Rem 700s are well on their way to being a niche rifle for a few customers.

Horse hockey...

 

[LHSmith]

I disagree on 700 properly controlling gases. Anyone who has overpressured a factory 700 knows that the gases come right back in your face. Embarrassingly enough, I admit I’ve accidentally done it a few times pushing loads to the max over the years. With the 3 rings of steel design, the gases have nowhere to go but straight back through the bolt body when the primer pocket on a case comes apart. One of those forced points of entry for gas into the bolt body is thru firing pin hole and it comes out the back of the bolt shroud right in your face. In my opinion, the 3 rings of steel is a horrible design that only makes for a weak bolt face and dangerous vent path for gases.

In one instance with a R700 in 204 Ruger, I blew the bolt face apart all around the extractor cut. The horrible design of their extractor makes all of their bolt faces weak in that cut area. I beat the bolt open and found pieces of my broken bolt face and broken extractor spring along with a destroyed case head. I had to rebuild the entire bolt face with a steel bushing
and cut in a Sako extractor since the factory extractor cut was destroyed. It even knocked the trigger sear engagement out of adjustment, disabling it until I re-adjusted the trigger (don’t ask me how that happened). The gases stung like hell when they hit me in the face, but I was ok.
The couple other times were popped primers but not as much over pressure. It etched the bolt face with hot gases but no other real damage. But in all instances hot uncontained gases were directed right into my face.

Had a much higher instance of overpressure in a Ruger M77 tang in 358 Norma Magnum where I was testing an unlisted fast powder and had misjudged my load calculation. First round in the test group using 225gr Partitions read 3279 fps across the chronograph. I was very amazed at the speed and nothing felt out of the ordinary shooting the round. But that was insanely fast so I thought it might have been a chrono error. I went to open the bolt to load the next round and it was welded shut. Took me a long time with the gun in a vice and beating on the handle with a mallet to get it open. Had to pry and dig the case out in chunks from the chamber. In the end there was zero damage to the rifle. I had no clue there was an overpressure at first because the gasses were vented in a safe direction (whatever direction that might be with the M77). Took the rifle out the next weekend being much more careful with my experimental unlisted loads and the rifle shot like nothing had even happened. Didn’t even lose my zero on the scope.

So when it comes to safely venting gases, the 3 rings of steel is a horrible design if you ask me.

So somehow you come to the conclusion that a Sako extractor makes a 700 bolt more safe? I have seen a Howa that had catastrophic failure and I'll stay with Remington and it's design.
55 years hunting with the 700's and I have never had a jam when trying to cycle a round. In full disclosure I never load my magazines (in any rifle) to their advertised max capacity - just my "make the first shot(s) count" mentality.

 

[LHSmith]

Yes, I have had one major overpressure and don't recall blowback into my face.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

So somehow you come to the conclusion that a Sako extractor makes a 700 bolt more safe? I have seen a Howa that had catastrophic failure and I'll stay with Remington and it's design.
55 years hunting with the 700's and I have never had a jam when trying to cycle a round. In full disclosure I never load my magazines (in any rifle) to their advertised max capacity - just my make the first shot(s) count mentality.

No, Sako extractors make Remington 700s even more dangerous, but that was my only option back at the time. People weren’t using m16 and mini16 back then. My main point was that the 700 does not direct gases safely and the bolt faces are weak.

As far as feeding, the factory double stack mags are so, so...Not the best when cycling at slow speeds off kilter. But a 700 can be made to feed extremely smooth and reliably at any cycling speed with a properly installed Wyatts center feed box. No denying that. I use a Wyatts on my Kelby Atlas and both my current 700s. Also have a heavily
modified 722 but I converted that one to a single shot. However, center feed mags are not part of the original 700 design. That’s another very simple aftermarket modification that Remington could have implemented but failed to adopt.

As far as not recalling gas blow back in your face, you must have forgotten or the overpressure wasn’t as bad as you thought. Other people I know it’s happened to will tell you the same thing.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

And I’m not saying that a 700 won’t handle major overpressure. There’s just a good chance you will get a smack in the face from gases.

I have only had overpressure incidents with Rem 700 and Ruger M77 tang. Can’t speak for anything else from lack of personal experience.