what neck turning tool do I need not for f class shooting?

[KY_Windage]

I'll just try a expander I have and see how it goes. Have you done chamber casting to know that factory neck clearances are generous?

You can just measure neck dia. before and after shooting.

 

[milboltnut]

You can just measure neck dia. before and after shooting.

runout not expansion. The IDOD rep showed sizing cases without the expander ball decreased runout.

watch at the 4 minute mark and he'll show you with and without a ball expander measuring runout.

 

[KY_Windage]

runout not expansion

Beg your pardon?

 

[milboltnut]

you're dealing with runout, nonconcentric. A case doesn't become concentric from being fired, does it, otherwise guys wouldn't neck turn or anything else for that matter would they? Am I missing soemthing?

I just sized new brass with and without the expander ball. The ID on the case with the ex. ball is anywhere from .002 to .004 larger at 4 different readings. Without the ex ball, it's .001 to .002 difference at 4 different readings.

I have a .308 expander that I used for cast loads, and it measures .308 all the way around.

 

[KY_Windage]

I don't understand why you even brought runout into the discussion. I'm not talking about it.

 

[Evan]

I'll just try a expander I have and see how it goes. Have you done chamber casting to know that factory neck clearances are generous?

New & Revised Cartridge & Chamber Drawings - SAAMI

saami.org

You can see the specifications there. If we look at everyone's favorite: the 6.5 Creedmoor, just as an example, the spec says the chamber neck should be 0.297, but can be as large as 0.299 and still in spec. I know that my out of the box unturned hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass would load to 0.292, creating up to 0.007 of clearance. If you do a light cleanup cut on your brass and it ends up at 0.289-0.290 loaded, you are up to ~0.010" of clearance. This is assuming the barrel is cut within tolerance. Only a chamber cast would tell for sure, but it certainly won't be smaller than specified - that could be a liability for the company - so they always err the other way.

Now as an example of a custom chamber, like an F-classer might specify, my 6.5x47 bench gun has a 0.293" neck. That is significantly tighter than a factory neck. I turn my necks to get a consistent 0.290" loaded diameter, which gives 0.003" of clearance, which is the target clearance many aim for.

BTW - I'd recommend starting new threads for new questions. I just noticed you've changed your first post several times and that is going to create a lot of confusion for people trying to follow along or if someone digs up this thread with the search function in the future.

 

[milboltnut]

I changed the thread title to help others know what I'm after. Search function can be difficult.

 

[milboltnut]

I don't understand why you even brought runout into the discussion. I'm not talking about it.

Your right I had to go back and read what you said. To know how generous your neck dimension is in the chamber, sorry !

 

[Dub]

I give up trying to follow this thread.

 

[milboltnut]

I know, sorry about that..... my bad ! LOL

 

[milboltnut]

I give up trying to follow this thread.

apologies. I'm doing other stuff around the house......

 

[LHSmith]

Sorry, milboltnut, but I think were are being trolled. The conversation is like an Abbot and Costello routine. You ask a barrage of questions in a thread, then start other threads that are similar in nature. As said your thread titles show you are trying to raise confrontations.

 

[milboltnut]

Sorry, milboltnut, but I think were are being trolled. The conversation is like an Abbot and Costello routine. You ask a barrage of questions in a thread, then start other threads that are similar in nature. As said your thread titles show you are trying to raise confrontations.

I know, I get ahead of myself... sometimes. I really am sorry. I just get excited sometimes when I'm on the road to improvement. I'm not trying to troll, just get smart that's all. I caught myself.

 

[Patriot007]

I've necked turned and stay away from the shoulder, so I can't see the tool head being an issue.


Is .0000 really necessary ? I cut .000 and measured to see within .001 to a half a thou. Handheld is too tedious. And another guy mentioned a floating head, (and I would think with you wanting .0000) why mention handheld turners?

1- stay away from the shoulder, simple.
2- no comment LOL
3- You really think a lathe or milling machine, without a floating head is not precise enough? Fitting machined parts is one thing, but the neck alone? what about the rest of the case?
4- do you really need it? Or has that marketing pitch won people over?
5- Ok my Lee classic press is total junk than. NOT !

Patriot007....... That's a bit over the top $$ wise and is it really necessary? I mean at the bench? DOes it really improve accuracy? Besides, I'm not in F class shooting, I'm just palying with my M70 and 721


I noticed accuracy improvement with thier seater dies... Maybe thier mainstream isn't equipment, but I think the tool does a great job. I am not in F class shooting and never will be.

I under stand completely where your coming from. Your best bang for the BUCK is the PMA system. The entire system is very cost effective and you want have the head aces that will come from the Hornady or other lesser neck turning system. I have personally used the PMA neck turner with my FIL/Mentor and for the bang for the Buck and you want be disappointed. From reading your post, you sound like my Father in law. That's a good thing. LOL And I can relate.. My FIL proves it every day that you do not need the latest and greatest to produce accurate ammo. He's 86, and still piss$$ing the other shooters off at the range with his groups.. Me, I just hope when I turn 86, I can still walk out to the 500 & 600yd targets and back with out having to take several breaks. Your call Sir, I know you will do what's right for you. I say this because the first neck turner we used was the Hornady, second was the RCBS, third was the Sinclair, Then I bought the K&M, and my FIL settled on the PMA. The PMA is just as good as the K&M and the 21Cenutry. Good luck on your decision. I know it's a hard one.

 

[Pawnee Bill]

Chromatica.... how you figure that?

Maybe because it's the best.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Any rifle will benefit from neck turning. And turning into the shoulder is a must. Donuts are never a good thing no matter what anybody says. The pma tool that has the micrometer is the easiest. The k&m driver is the easiest. Then a FL bushing die with bushings .002&.003 under loaded neck diameter and youre on your way. The hornady or rcbs neck turning tools are a waste of money even for an f-class guy

 

[VaRandy]

21st Century micro-lathe, hands down!

K&M

 

[milboltnut]

Dusty....

What does an f class shooter have to do with a neck turner? Id say that 98% of them don't even turn necks

IMHO, neck turning for a factory chamber will yield worse accuracy. Spend the money on a solid benchrest, windflags, a wider variety of components.

Any rifle will benefit from neck turning. And turning into the shoulder is a must. Donuts are never a good thing no matter what anybody says. The pma tool that has the micrometer is the easiest. The k&m driver is the easiest. Then a FL bushing die with bushings .002&.003 under loaded neck diameter and youre on your way. The hornady or rcbs neck turning tools are a waste of money even for an f-class guy

I've not seen neck turning with factory chambers make accuracy worse. It is a nice way to produce both lighter and more consistent neck tension with factory dies though. The drawback in a factory chamber is that neck clearance is usually quite generous, so if you turn your necks you may now have even more, say 0.010" or more of clearance which will work the brass more with each firing cycle and shorten its life.

If your goal is to shoot 0.5MOA consistently, Id recommend high quality, match type bullets first. If that doesn't do it, then I'd try high quality brass (if you aren't already: Lapua, Peterson, ADG, Alpha), then as the final step; I'd get a new barrel. Neck turning isn't something I would put in the "shrinks large groups" category. It's more in the "creates more consistency" category.

1- Does the expander ball form a donut? And will a forster FL die prevent that?
maybe I should go with a forster type FL die... seems Forster FL's are dried up.
2- I'll do what Even said, measure the neck after firing to see if my factory chamber neck area is generous....

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Dusty....







1- Does the expander ball form a donut? And will a forster FL die prevent that?
maybe I should go with a forster type FL die... seems Forster FL's are dried up.
2- I'll do what Even said, measure the neck after firing to see if my factory chamber neck area is generous....

Not many use an expander ball with a bushing die. That way the donut youll get eventually will be on the inside. The expander just brings it back out and overworks everything

 

[Sniper338]

Doesn't sound like you need a neck turner at all.