Remington extraction cam fix

[davidjoe]

Agree Dave, but unlike Winchester, the Remington clip is almost destined to break with a really bad stuck case, if you have great primary extraction.

You guys smithing aren’t necessarily going to fix a lot of broken extractors because we can handle that, and because explaining it means we did something dumb.

 

[Will Henry]

Yeah, regarding the extractor. A fellow I knew (an old trapper) had a Remington 760 (same extractor) as his "working gun". It had a rough chamber and extraction was difficult. Difficult enough that it was SOP for him to put the butt against a tree and jerk back on the fore arm with both hands to extract and eject the spent case. When he finally got tired of this and brought it in, he had probably extracted a couple hundred cases this way. That extractor never failed. By the way, the chamber cleaned up easily with a ball hone and he was pretty pleased when he could pump that rifle with the flick of a the wrist and the shell flew right out.
Anyway, the 700 extractor is a good system when it's right. I always preferred the riveted extractor, by the way.

 

[6fatrat]

My 700's old , newer and new work great.
But I must not be very bright.
Steve Bair

 

[davidjoe]

It would be nice to have primary extraction. Like Will said, a rough chamber can stick a case through no fault of the shooter. Not an issue on most guns but combine that with a long tactical bolt handle and it’s an annoyance.

Remington intended to have it. Somewhere along the way they have become content not to check for it, any longer. That much is very clear. They also aren’t going to address it on a gun. They simply don’t see it as imperative to have, and I think they may actually believe it’s easier for users, and for them, when there is an exceedingly well-stuck case, not to have primary extraction. It does make it easier to get to the stage of using a rod.

 

[Will Henry]

I honestly believe this theory is nothing short of fantasy. No company deliberately sets out to produce a rifle which requires the shooter to take a plastic hammer to the line with him. WH

 

[DaveTooley]

I honestly believe this theory is nothing short of fantasy. No company deliberately sets out to produce a rifle which requires the shooter to take a plastic hammer to the line with him. WH

Will save your breath. Don't you know it's the long bolt handle that's the problem.

 

[davidjoe]

Guys, you discovered the cam surfaces didn’t touch. But Remington never did. Maybe we should tell them.

Edit, I shouldn’t be sarcastic. We know. They know. They knew first. It’s a no cost adjustment to rotate the handle the required degrees to make contact.

There is some reason it hasn’t been done. If it’s not one of the ones discussed like post-factory-test interchangeability, that doesn’t change the fact that the company has been perfectly fine shipping millions of rifles that lack primary extraction. Probably the last 1-2M made. There is no difference between “setting out” to ship them that way, and knowing that they are.

I have this rifle in 700, 40X, stainless, carbon, C-coated, blued, short and long action, new and old so many times over that it’s truly absurd. You do not need primary extraction to get by with it day to day. Their management knows this as sure as they can spell Ilion.

I don’t see anyone disagreeing with the argument I made that under certain circumstances, (thick rimmed, extremely stuck) perfect primary extraction will cause damage in forcing the bolt upward, before the case can be hammered out with a rod. (Handles may have been knocked off, clips mangled, scopes hit, or as simple as policy that given two choices, don’t pick the design that promotes taking a mallet to any part of the rifle proper). Is this their reason(s), I don’t know. Is it an invalid reason? I listening if so.

 

[AlNyhus]

I've done many where I put a pin in the action. Very easy to install and even easier to dress down for a good fit.

Dave, care to share any details on pin diameter, material, etc? I've looked at doing it this way and like the idea of matching the angles with an insert in the action rather than on the bolt.

Thanks! -Al

 

[DaveTooley]

1/8" dowel pin cut to length and a bit of epoxy. I put a chamfer on the end so it has a good solid contact patch in the action.

 

[Will Henry]

Sounds great, Dave, but it's just going to wreck the extractor. Better to beat on the bolt with a mallet. Winchester, Mauser, Springfield, BSA, Savage, Mossberg, Sako, Tikka, Howa, Weatherby, are just a few of the companies which never caught on to the fact that primary extraction is bad.
How many of your customers have come back and said their rifle was ruined because the case was extracted by simply raising the handle? WH

 

[davidjoe]

How many of those manufacturers above opted to use the Remington style clip extractor? I personally think they are plenty strong, but I also am not prone to firearm and ammo mishaps, and this would be the single most widely dispersed centerfire action action of my lifetime, that is used, abused and sued, by the masses.

As an actual weekly and sometimes daily user of many rifles, competition and otherwise, I for one hope that none of the others decide that primary extraction should be sidestepped.

I’m not among 10-30 smiths that on this issue have experience and would rather propose a fix than put a finger on the problem, yes, - a pointed why haven’t you addressed this in 20 years unless you have private reasons that happen to make good sense because there are in fact other problems - finger - who might not actually mind that Remington won’t stop the issue cold, because they themselves can solve it. Fix them all, there are plenty, but also let’s put a bee in their bonnet to stop it. To say it’s just production managers or engineers doing their best in a troubled company is poo-pooing this, pure and simple.

Rather, I’m the end-user, not a smith at all but a customer and guy that prefers the 700, isn’t going to overload a round to experience a major stuck case in the first place, and has had to gently tap open many 700’s for lack of primary extraction, with factory match rounds, which would be utterly unacceptable if my life depended on the rifle.

I’m not apt to think a few rifles slipped QC. Other smiths here will confirm Remington is SPOT ON where they affix that handle - always avoiding contact by the same distance. My own bolts that I have swapped to test bear that out.

 

[davidjoe]

And when you try to pull back on a bolt knob that turns out to be sticking, Dave, the longer the tactical bolt handle is, the less force there is being applied straight back.

 

[Riesel]

Me? I'm just dying to see what the new Remington 700 actions look like? Or maybe there won't be a R700
action at all....would make this thread a bit of kicking that old can down the road some more a bit mute.
If Remington brings back the R700 with out "the new and improved" then it's true, you can lead a horse
to water but you can't make them drink............or............They really don't much care what you say or write.
If they refuse to upgrade or improve those actions, then rebel and don't buy 'em.
Riesel

 

[DaveTooley]

And when you try to pull back on a bolt knob that turns out to be sticking, Dave, the longer the tactical bolt handle is, the less force there is being applied straight back.

Sorry I thought we were talking about manual extraction and tearing out extractors not bolts binding.

 

[Doug Beach]

I've done a similar thing and it worked fine. Something has to be done on virtually every Remington 700 bolt if it was made in the last twenty or thirty years. Often the rotation is right, the location of the handle is right, but the location of the extraction cam is wrong. The thing that gets me is that it's not just kind of wrong, it's not even close. The official line is; the 700 is supposed to cock on closing. We didn't want to make it right. WH

Will,
I’m probably being dense, but how does the bolt handle / extraction cam relationship affect cock-on-close?

 

[davidjoe]

Me? I'm just dying to see what the new Remington 700 actions look like? Or maybe there won't be a R700
action at all....would make this thread a bit of kicking that old can down the road some more a bit mute.
If Remington brings back the R700 with out "the new and improved" then it's true, you can lead a horse
to water but you can't make them drink............or............They really don't much care what you say or write.
If they refuse to upgrade or improve those actions, then rebel and don't buy 'em.
Riesel

The M700 bare receiver, at about $100 this year on liquidation sale, is legitimately good enough to form the basis of $10k mil spec rifles but cheap enough to produce to be put in $350 walking rigs bought as action donors with throw away stocks at big box stores.

It’s the only factory action footprint deliberately copied by custom makers. I hope if they tinker with it they retain that unparalleled range of practicality and utility.

 

[BigBlueandGoldie]

The M700 bare receiver, at about $100 this year on liquidation sale, is legitimately good enough to form the basis of $10k mil spec rifles but cheap enough to produce to be put in $350 walking rigs bought as action donors with throw away stocks at big box stores.

It’s the only factory action footprint deliberately copied by custom makers. I hope if they tinker with it they retain that unparalleled range of practicality and utility.

To be fair it's kinds the 350 Chevy of the gun world. In stock form it's nothing to write home about, but gets the job done. It's the aftermarket, govt contracts, and marketing over the last 50 years that has made it so prevalent. The design has some great aspects, but I wouldn't call it revolutionary by any means when compared to other actions.

 

[davidjoe]

To be fair it's kinds the 350 Chevy of the gun world. In stock form it's nothing to write home about, but gets the job done. It's the aftermarket, govt contracts, and marketing over the last 50 years that has made it so prevalent. The design has some great aspects, but I wouldn't call it revolutionary by any means when compared to other actions.

I agree with all of that. REM and Win took a lot from Mauser. REM would get some credit for ramping up scales of economy and making the action so accessible to us. When it is “cloned,” the cost is 3x.

The Win 70 is actually superior, heavier, definitely harder to produce, and more failsafe, despite it failing sooner in the marketplace - I do know it lives on in a quiet second existence these days, and I use the FN SPR’s.

But it was never as accepted as a starting point for aftermarket improvements, even though it resists torque with a flat bottom, doesn’t fling brass at the branch and has an integral recoil lug that is inherently stronger and always aligns perfectly after a barrel swap.

 

[Will Henry]

Will,
I’m probably being dense, but how does the bolt handle / extraction cam relationship affect cock-on-close?

When there is no contact between the extraction cam, the sear is the first thing that contacts when the bolt is closed. The rifle won't cock by simply raising and lowering the handle. When things are right, it should. The final portion of the cocking operation does occur on closing but only when the bolt handle is turned down. WH

 

[AlNyhus]

The M700 bare receiver, at about $100 this year on liquidation sale, is legitimately good enough to form the basis of $10k mil spec rifles......

I'm interested as to where you're finding these $100 bare receivers. If you can provide a link, I'd appreciate it. Or PM me here if you'd rather.

I'd like to try Dave's dowel pin fix on one.

Thanks. -Al