Sorting rounds by times brass was shot or PSI?

[CA_Shooter]

Hey, wondering what everyone does.

If you have brass that is already sorted by times shot - let's say 2 to 4 times per group of brass.

AND you also load with an arbor press that allows you to check the loads seating pressure, in PSI for example.

How do you sort your rounds if you needed to choose one of these:

Do you:

•Sort loaded rounds by PSI, mixing brass fired between 2 to 4 times, for the time being (but still tracking times the brass was fired)
•Sort loaded rounds by times shot, trying to keep the seating pressure as close as you can?

 

[JEFFPPC]

Simple I think. Shoot the 2's twice, now you have all 4's. Other than that I would sort by the numbers you get. I am not convinced 2 vs 4 means much but easy to make all 4's.

 

[CA_Shooter]

Simple I think. Shoot the 2's twice, now you have all 4's. Other than that I would sort by the numbers you get. I am not convinced 2 vs 4 means much but easy to make all 4's.

This would be much more simple if primers were available. But without primers easily accessible I can't shoot the 2s in 20 shot strings to get them up to 4s

 

[R.Morehouse]

If you want to further sort them, you could weigh them, or next time you shoot them do it over a chrono and sort them by speed. I personally don't do either of these shooting 6ppc, but I do make sure they are the exact same OAL.

Regards
Rick

 

[PopCharlie]

I sort by times shot, now. I used to not worry about it. All my brass was just thrown together. I did sort by turned or not turned necks. So now, I sort by times fired. If I have to turn necks (to fix excessive variance in neck wall thickness), I turn the entire batch. I keep batches of 25 and 50.
I have a K & M arbor press with the force pack. I have been able to get the seating force to within 5 lbs, on average, from case to case. Many times I see all cases within 3 lbs across a batch 50. I have noticed that the seating force gets more consistent after 3 to 4 firings. Then starts to get less consistent after 7 or 8 firings.
I do anneal with an AMP annealer after each firing. Neck turned cases seem to get less consistent after 6 firings. I do continue to use the brass until the primer pockets get loose. Usually 12 to 16 firings.

PopCharlie

 

[JEFFPPC]

I sort by times shot, now. I used to not worry about it. All my brass was just thrown together. I did sort by turned or not turned necks. So now, I sort by times fired. If I have to turn necks (to fix excessive variance in neck wall thickness), I turn the entire batch. I keep batches of 25 and 50.
I have a K & M arbor press with the force pack. I have been able to get the seating force to within 5 lbs, on average, from case to case. Many times I see all cases within 3 lbs across a batch 50. I have noticed that the seating force gets more consistent after 3 to 4 firings. Then starts to get less consistent after 7 or 8 firings.
I do anneal with an AMP annealer after each firing. Neck turned cases seem to get less consistent after 6 firings. I do continue to use the brass until the primer pockets get loose. Usually 12 to 16 firings.

PopCharlie

Pop,after 3 or 4 firings return your necks.

 

[JMayo]

I have fishing tackle boxes marked "in" & "out". As I shoot they go from one to another. Over lap is ignored. So the shot# is + - 1 firing.
6bra - I weighed the cases new & tried to keep them separated but that has been a real pita.
30 are all in one bunch.

Neck tension falls in the same area with sizing bushings.
the seating force depends on lube. Trying to get an exact# there is "dream land"
Consistency, consistency

 

[David Christian]

@smoketheclay, if you are seeing a wide difference in seating pressures you may want to go back to your reloading steps and figure out what is creating the difference and fix that piece of your process. Items I would consider:

• Are your cases grouped by lot of brass from same manufacturer?
• Do you know if they all have the same neck thicknesses, measured at 3 different points on the circumference?
• Are you annealing each piece the same, ideally with a custom Aztec code per box?
• Are they all being sized to the same neck dimension?
• Do you use an expander mandrel/gage pin post sizing that expands them to the same ID after spring back and is moving the brass enough to have an effect?
• Is the inside neck brass surface consistent?
• Does each piece of brass have the same, consistent inside chamfer?

Something is creating your difference in seating pressure. Find that up the process chain and they will all seat to the same pressure. Good luck!

Best,
DC

 

[Ccrider]

If you want to further sort them, you could weigh them, or next time you shoot them do it over a chrono and sort them by speed. I personally don't do either of these shooting 6ppc, but I do make sure they are the exact same OAL.

Regards
Rick

Please tell us why?

 

[PopCharlie]

Pop,after 3 or 4 firings return your necks.

JEFFPPC,
I will give that a try.
Thanks
PopCharlie

 

[mikecr]

You should mind everything on David Christians list, and catch up 2x to 4x fired as mentioned.
Also, if you're bushing/partial neck sizing, and you've normalized neck friction, then you can adjust tension to match with neck sizing LENGTH.

 

[R.Morehouse]

Please tell us why?

Why What?
Weigh them?......Some believe that may lead to more consistent internal volume ( I have never checked it )
Why run them over a chrono?........ Theoretically, if you separate the brass by the ones that shoot the same speed you are starting with a load in that brass that has an es/sd of zero.
Be anal about the case OAL for your match ammo......That one works for me in my ppc's
Hope that covered the why's in my previous post....

Regards
Rick

 

[CA_Shooter]

@smoketheclay, if you are seeing a wide difference in seating pressures you may want to go back to your reloading steps and figure out what is creating the difference and fix that piece of your process. Items I would consider:

• Are your cases grouped by lot of brass from same manufacturer?
• Do you know if they all have the same neck thicknesses, measured at 3 different points on the circumference?
• Are you annealing each piece the same, ideally with a custom Aztec code per box?
• Are they all being sized to the same neck dimension?
• Do you use an expander mandrel/gage pin post sizing that expands them to the same ID after spring back and is moving the brass enough to have an effect?
• Is the inside neck brass surface consistent?
• Does each piece of brass have the same, consistent inside chamfer?

Something is creating your difference in seating pressure. Find that up the process chain and they will all seat to the same pressure. Good luck!

Best,
DC

I'm doing all of the above except I don't turn necks. I'm annealing roughly after 4 shots.

I am really trying to see what everyone thinks about what is more important: seating pressure or times shot for brass.

My seating pressure is pretty consistent between 60-80 PSI but I still sort them by PSI

 

[Ccrider]

Why What?
Weigh them?......Some believe that may lead to more consistent internal volume ( I have never checked it )
Why run them over a chrono?........ Theoretically, if you separate the brass by the ones that shoot the same speed you are starting with a load in that brass that has an es/sd or zero.
Be anal about the case OAL for your match ammo......That one works for me in my ppc's
Hope that covered the why's in my previous post....

Regards
Rick

Wondering why you wanted them all the exact same OAL.

 

[R.Morehouse]

Wondering why you wanted them all the exact same OAL.

I have checked it and it has worked so I keep doing it. My sample size to the conclusion was not huge but I asked a few other shooters if they had tried it and I got a few "yes, I do that to's". One of the guys was J.Neary so I figured it was not too labor-intensive to work into the system. If I am pissing into the wind.....I am not alone....

Regards
Rick

 

[INTJ]

I'm doing all of the above except I don't turn necks. I'm annealing roughly after 4 shots.

I am really trying to see what everyone thinks about what is more important: seating pressure or times shot for brass.

My seating pressure is pretty consistent between 60-80 PSI but I still sort them by PSI

I do both. I keep brass from the same lot that I weight sorted all together, and make sure they have the same number of firings. I also sort by PSI on the hydro seater. I wouldn't use any brass for record that wasn't on the same firing but I would use them for sighters.

I haven't tested which is more important. To me that is like asking which is more important when baking a cake, flour or sugar?

 

[CA_Shooter]

I do both. I keep brass from the same lot that I weight sorted all together, and make sure they have the same number of firings. I also sort by PSI on the hydro seater. I wouldn't use any brass for record that wasn't on the same firing but I would use them for sighters.

I haven't tested which is more important. To me that is like asking which is more important when baking a cake, flour or sugar?

Nice analogy. Primer shortage is causing me to have to think about these things

 

[newbieshooter]

I had loaded some rounds to test for a 600 yard match. Bullets usually seat with about 35-40 psi on the hydropress. One of the rounds seated with less than 10 psi - you could move the bullet a bit if you pushed/pulled on it. I colored this one outlier with a red sharpie.

Day before the match @ 600 yard practice/sight-in - shot the 4 seated @ 35-40psi. Then shot the red-marked bullet last.




Yeah I know the sample size is too small to draw any conclusions.... YMMV

 

[Ccrider]

I had loaded some rounds to test for a 600 yard match. Bullets usually seat with about 35-40 psi on the hydropress. One of the rounds seated with less than 10 psi - you could move the bullet a bit if you pushed/pulled on it. I colored this one outlier with a red sharpie.

Day before the match @ 600 yard practice/sight-in - shot the 4 seated @ 35-40psi. Then shot the red-marked bullet last.

View attachment 1218652


Yeah I know the sample size is too small to draw any conclusions.... YMMV

When I have one that lose, I try to resize it or just use it as a fouler. Know it’s generally not going where it is suppose to.

 

[newbieshooter]

When I have one that lose, I try to resize it or just use it as a fouler. Know it’s generally not going where it is suppose to.

Yep, usually used as a fouler. But in this test, just wanted to see what would happen - and it grouped along with the first 4. Small sample size.